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Post by mellontes on Mar 26, 2010 12:42:34 GMT -5
Well...
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Post by Morris on Mar 26, 2010 13:27:58 GMT -5
There was a time when I'd say "absolutely, that's a no-brainer" to this question. Through the last few years of Bible study I'd have to say I can't find any evidence of that concept. But rather, quite the contrary actually.
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Post by Once4all on Mar 26, 2010 17:11:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure anymore. Like Sheldon, I use to believe so. I think definitions are necessary: What is soul? What is spirit? Are they synonymous?
If the dust (body) returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7), wouldn't that imply that our spirit is eternal?
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Post by didymus on Mar 26, 2010 20:52:17 GMT -5
I never thought that my Presidential announcement would turn into a theological debate. But since it has. First, look back at Genesis when God formed man. We need to get rid of some fallacies. Adam was not "created" in the sense that he was created out of nothing. Look at Gen. 2.7. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being (KJV-soul)." Now there are things I have learned down through the years (so Mell - please don't ask me where I got them from). The word "breath" is translated out the same word that is often translated "spirit." God "breathed in" Adam, and he became a "living soul/being." The word soul means "life." The word "inspire" means "to breathe in." So, God formed the physical body of Adam out of the dust of the ground, then He inspired Adam and he became a soul/life. To put this in a logical equation it would be, physical body + spirit = life. So, now that we understand how Adam became a living being, we can address the question at hand. Are we born with an eternal soul/life? The answer is, no. Can you see that, or do I have to elaborate? Pastor Didy  |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 26, 2010 22:00:17 GMT -5
Pastor Didy, your equation is how I currently understand it. Body + spirit = soul. Or in the terms of Genesis 2:7 Dust of the ground + breath of life = living being. Spirit and breath are the same word in Scripture. Genesis 2:7 also says that "God breathed into his nostrils" the breath of life. But does God breathe? Therefore, it may not be wise to think of breath in this case as the literal air we breathe, nor the ability to breathe it (lung function). So, the soul is not eternal. It is created when body and spirit combine. |
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Post by didymus on Mar 27, 2010 6:10:12 GMT -5
Once4all, I do believe you got it. But man can obtain an eternal soul/life when born again. When we are born from above, we receive a new spirit, the Holy Spirit, and through that process we are in Christ. In Christ we obtain eternal life/soul. But that soul is different than when Adam was formed. That equation would be, man's spirit + Holy Spirit = eternal soul/life. To the question of God breathing. Remember, Jesus said, God is Spirit. Therefore, God is Breath. Being Breath, God can breathe into anyone he chooses. Does that make sense, Bev? Pastor Didy  |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 27, 2010 11:49:29 GMT -5
Thanks, Didy. Yeah, you make sense.
This got me thinking about the relationship between spirit (breath) and words spoken. But so that I don't hijack Ted's thread, I'll start a new one.
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Post by MoGrace2U on May 16, 2010 10:58:36 GMT -5
There is a life that is temporal only which God gives and takes away. But then there is the heavenly life that once given is never taken away. Eg. angels who when they were created can never die. So it would seem becoming a heavenly creature is what is needed for man to live beyond his earthly death in order to come into the heavenly realm.
I find it interesting that in the birth of mammals, humans begin life in water. And death is also pictured as a passage thru water - which no man can swim over (Elijah). But he can be carried thru as were both Noah and Jonah in type. Neither of whom died but made the passage alive to their destination. And Jesus uses the sign of Jonah to picture His own death and resurrection - which fulfills the type. We find other types too in the crossing of the Red Sea, the river Jordan - and the waters of life that flow from the throne of God which men are called to drink of freely now. Crossing those waters means either death or life depending on whether it is God who is leading the way.
The earthly life of the body is dependent upon its survival from the earth - thru eating and drinking. But the heavenly life is dependent upon a spirit with an unbroken connection to the life of God. This is what Adam lost in the death that came by sin, but which is restored to man with the birth of the spirit by the life of Christ.
So in looking at the gestation of the child in the womb we see how dependent the child is upon its mother to be able to live in those waters that would otherwise cause his drowning were the child breathing on its own. In a similar sense, I see a picture of what will be the case when we must pass thru the waters which separate the earthly realm from the heavenly. Both realms have life being made from the same waters of life, but only one has death - and that is needed to get from one to the other! But only those who have the life of Christ having been quickened to spiritual life first will make the trip alive...which is why no man can keep his soul alive, but God can because we are now 'attached' to His Spirit so that when it returns to Him we are too!
Whereas before, the living soul died when the breath of God departed.
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Post by didymus on May 16, 2010 12:21:05 GMT -5
Robin, You appear to be describing a spiritual umbilical cord. Am I right? And, are you absolutely sure that angels cannot die? If so, I am curious what you base that on. Tom  |
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Post by MoGrace2U on May 17, 2010 10:19:50 GMT -5
Robin, You appear to be describing a spiritual umbilical cord. Am I right? And, are you absolutely sure that angels cannot die? If so, I am curious what you base that on. Tom In a sense I suppose I am. If angels are able to die - where does that happen? Surely not in heaven, else eternal life is not eternal even there. |
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Post by didymus on May 17, 2010 14:58:55 GMT -5
Robin asked, "If angels are able to die - where does that happen?" In the lake of fire, which is the second death.
2nd Peter 2.4 tells that God did not spare angels who sinned, but cast them into Hell (tartaros-the deepest part of Hades).
Revelation 20.14 tells us that death and hades was cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
If angels were in Hades when Hades was cast into the lake of fire, the second death, they certainly died then.
Didy
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Post by Allyn on May 17, 2010 15:54:37 GMT -5
Robin, You appear to be describing a spiritual umbilical cord. Am I right? And, are you absolutely sure that angels cannot die? If so, I am curious what you base that on. Tom I think Ps 148 is saying, for one thing, that angels live forever. 1 Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! 2 Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! 4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away. |
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Post by didymus on May 18, 2010 6:21:57 GMT -5
Robin, You appear to be describing a spiritual umbilical cord. Am I right? And, are you absolutely sure that angels cannot die? If so, I am curious what you base that on. Tom I think Ps 148 is saying, for one thing, that angels live forever. 1 Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! 2 Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! 4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away. Notice, in your quote, it talks about "His angels." But there are sinful angels as pointed out in 2nd Peter 2.4. And it is pointed out what God does with those sinful angels. Now when Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death - SECOND DEATH! What happens to those sinful angels? |
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Post by Morris on May 18, 2010 10:01:55 GMT -5
Now when Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death - SECOND DEATH! What happens to those sinful angels? Interesting discussion. I have a question though, can an angel experience the second death without first experiencing a first death? |
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Post by didymus on May 18, 2010 19:42:37 GMT -5
Well, if God cast them into tataros doesn't it stand to reason that they were dead then? Isn't that a place of the dead? I pointed out the lake of fire, 'cause if they weren't dead before, they certainly were then. Good question. I have wondered about that myself.  - anyone want to join me for a spot of tea? |
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Post by Morris on May 19, 2010 8:55:53 GMT -5
Well, if God cast them into tataros doesn't it stand to reason that they were dead then? Isn't that a place of the dead? I pointed out the lake of fire, 'cause if they weren't dead before, they certainly were then. Good question. I have wondered about that myself. - anyone want to join me for a spot of tea? Red Rose please. Thanks. *sip* Now then, if angels are spiritual beings, can they be spiritually dead? We know man can be spiritually dead and still exist since he also has a physical body and lives in the natural realm. But can an angel still exist as a spiritual being in the spiritual realm while spiritually dead? I don't know the answers to these. |
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Post by Once4all on May 19, 2010 10:00:31 GMT -5
Well, if God cast them into tataros doesn't it stand to reason that they were dead then? Isn't that a place of the dead? I pointed out the lake of fire, 'cause if they weren't dead before, they certainly were then. Good question. I have wondered about that myself. - anyone want to join me for a spot of tea? Red Rose please. Thanks. *sip* Now then, if angels are spiritual beings, can they be spiritually dead? We know man can be spiritually dead and still exist since he also has a physical body and lives in the natural realm. But can an angel still exist as a spiritual being in the spiritual realm while spiritually dead? I don't know the answers to these. So the second death, then, is the death of the spirit. The first death being the death of the body. The second death doesn't have to literally mean that you die a second time. From a human standpoint, it does, since we have both body and spirit. But for solely spiritual beings (i.e., angels), the "second" death is their first and only death. Maybe our thinking about it has been limited because we get stuck on the word "second" and think that anyone who suffers it must have already died a first time.  Enjoying a cup of morning coffee. Thanks for the invite! |
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Post by mellontes on May 19, 2010 11:08:46 GMT -5
It seems that the second death may refer to physical death if these two verses are considered:
Revelation 2:11 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
But the next verse may (or may not) indicate something else:
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sleepermongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If the "second death" from those four verses is consistent in meaning, then it seems that the "second death" from the first two verses indicate protection from (not being hurt, have no power) and not necessarily mean that the second death won't be experienced. If this is true, then it can still represent physical death.
I look at it this way: The soul is not created immortal. It is made alive in Christ (the Gospel) and becomes everlasting. Those that are not brought into covenant with God through Jesus Christ do not have an eternal soul. The second death (since they were already spiritually dead - the first death) would have an effect upon them. It would be that they would never experience a covenant relationship with God in eternity.
I guess it all depends upon what one believes about the "lake of fire." Is it a symbolic Hebrew expression of physical death and the cessation of an individual through judgment or is it a literal, eternal fire that torments "souls" for all of eternity...
And if one comes to the conclusion that "souls" were NOT created immortal, then the conclusion must be made that these "souls" could not be held in "torment" forever and ever...
Blessings,
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Post by Morris on May 19, 2010 14:24:20 GMT -5
Actually, I agree with mellontes that the first death is spiritual (as well as on other points). That is why I asked about angels experiencing a first (i.e. spiritual) death before the second death (a 'physical' death).
Now if the second death (regardless of numbering) is a physical death, how can an angel experience it, not being a physical being?
(Quite an interesting topic guys!)
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Post by Once4all on May 19, 2010 16:48:00 GMT -5
Actually, I agree with mellontes that the first death is spiritual (as well as on other points). That is why I asked about angels experiencing a first (i.e. spiritual) death before the second death (a 'physical' death). Now if the second death (regardless of numbering) is a physical death, how can an angel experience it, not being a physical being? (Quite an interesting topic guys!) So you are saying that the first death is spiritual and the second death is physical? Hmm. How about a physical (permanent) death of the spirit? If the first death in Adam was the death of the spirit (because Adam didn't physically die on the day he sinned), then one is born again of the Spirit in Christ, the second death is the death once again of the spirit (of those deserving of it-Rev 21:7-8). Both first and second being of the spirit; physical death being inconsequential, or in the case of Christ, a type or representation of the birth, death, and rebirth of the spirit. After all, the flesh profits nothing. It is merely a vessel of clay, an earthly tent to house the spirit. Thanks for allowing me to stretch my thoughts like taffy.  |
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Post by mellontes on May 19, 2010 17:32:27 GMT -5
After all, the flesh profits nothing. It is merely a vessel of clay, an earthly tent to house the spirit. Bev, I look at the flesh as being old covenant in nature - sort of Israel after the flesh - the shadows. That is why it does not profit post- cross. My opinion... |
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Post by Allyn on May 19, 2010 19:49:42 GMT -5
After all, the flesh profits nothing. It is merely a vessel of clay, an earthly tent to house the spirit. Bev, I look at the flesh as being old covenant in nature - sort of Israel after the flesh - the shadows. That is why it does not profit post- cross. My opinion... Good to see you, Ted. I am still trying to to devote sometime to your book. Right now I can't get anything done. |
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Post by mellontes on May 20, 2010 7:22:05 GMT -5
Good to see you, Ted. I am still trying to to devote sometime to your book. Right now I can't get anything done. Are you able to get dressed and brush your teeth?  |
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Post by didymus on May 21, 2010 6:10:20 GMT -5
Mell wrote a book?
Will someone tell me about it.
Didy
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