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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 9, 2010 21:32:54 GMT -5
Good evening.
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
Why? Why didn't Jesus want anyone to touch him? His reason for not being held was that He hadn't ascended to His Father. Doesn't the word "yet" almost imply that He could be touched at a later time? But only 10 days later Thomas was told to “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
What changed in that short amount of time now that He was allowing someone to touch him? He still hadn't ascended. Or was the reason that He allowed Thomas to examine him different?
Thanks
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 9, 2010 22:37:16 GMT -5
See Dan 7:13f where one like the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days. I think this was a bodily appearance to the Father to receive the kingdom. Because later that same day we see Him appear to the disciples and declare that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him - and then He commissions the disciples with that kingdom authority and breathes the Spirit on them to give them understanding. The ascension the disciples witnessed 40 days later would have been His exaltation to take the throne, where He would minister to them thru the coming power of the Holy Spirit.
Recently I was shown that the 7 Spirits of God (Rev) are described in Isa 11:1,2-3 . It would seem if we also look at the gifts of the Spirit given to men, that each of those attributes is distributed to men as well - though not equally so. Notice that first comes understanding of the scriptures - as was true on the road to Emmaus too - also on the same day.
7 Spirits: wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, (Edit: piety follows in the LXX) fear of the Lord, and in v3 judgment.
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Post by Once4all on Mar 9, 2010 23:14:33 GMT -5
Good evening. John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” Why? Why didn't Jesus want anyone to touch him? His reason for not being held was that He hadn't ascended to His Father. Doesn't the word "yet" almost imply that He could be touched at a later time? But only 10 days later Thomas was told to “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” What changed in that short amount of time now that He was allowing someone to touch him? He still hadn't ascended. Or was the reason that He allowed Thomas to examine him different? Thanks John 20:17 may not be about touching him, but rather not wanting to leave him. Jesus assured her he hadn't left yet and that she needed to go tell the brethren that she saw him and that he would be leaving to go to God. If I saw someone who I thought had died, someone I adored, I wouldn't want to leave his side for fear it was just a dream and if I left, I'd never find him again. Bev |
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Post by Allyn on Mar 10, 2010 11:58:38 GMT -5
Good evening. John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” Why? Why didn't Jesus want anyone to touch him? His reason for not being held was that He hadn't ascended to His Father. Doesn't the word "yet" almost imply that He could be touched at a later time? But only 10 days later Thomas was told to “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” What changed in that short amount of time now that He was allowing someone to touch him? He still hadn't ascended. Or was the reason that He allowed Thomas to examine him different? Thanks John 20:17 may not be about touching him, but rather not wanting to leave him. Jesus assured her he hadn't left yet and that she needed to go tell the brethren that she saw him and that he would be leaving to go to God. If I saw someone who I thought had died, someone I adored, I wouldn't want to leave his side for fear it was just a dream and if I left, I'd never find him again. Bev Bev, I think this makes good sense. |
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Post by Allyn on Mar 10, 2010 12:01:56 GMT -5
See Dan 7:13f where one like the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days. I think this was a bodily appearance to the Father to receive the kingdom. Because later that same day we see Him appear to the disciples and declare that all power in heaven and earth had been given to Him - and then He commissions the disciples with that kingdom authority and breathes the Spirit on them to give them understanding. The ascension the disciples witnessed 40 days later would have been His exaltation to take the throne, where He would minister to them thru the coming power of the Holy Spirit. Recently I was shown that the 7 Spirits of God (Rev) are described in Isa 11:1,2-3 . It would seem if we also look at the gifts of the Spirit given to men, that each of those attributes is distributed to men as well - though not equally so. Notice that first comes understanding of the scriptures - as was true on the road to Emmaus too - also on the same day. 7 Spirits: wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, fear of the Lord, and in v3 judgment. Good points |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 10, 2010 12:47:18 GMT -5
Touch:
680. haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee; reflex. of G681; prop. to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):--touch.
My Greek commentary gives the sense of binding oneself to. We do not bind ourselves to the Lord in the physical sense at all is my understanding. Whereas before I thought it might have the sense of some sort of defilement that the Lord was trying to avoid prior to His ascension to the Father immediately after His reincarnation to His flesh. But I don't think that is the intended meaning at all. It is more about an attempt to restrain Jesus to this earthly realm, when He was free to come and go between the 2 realms. And it was more necessary that He be able to do that, whereas keeping Him here was not the will of the Father except for a time to further instruct the disciples in the kingdom of God.
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Post by Allyn on Mar 10, 2010 12:50:38 GMT -5
Touch: 680. haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee; reflex. of G681; prop. to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):--touch. My Greek commentary gives the sense of binding oneself to. We do not bind ourselves to the Lord in the physical sense at all is my understanding. Whereas before I thought it might have the sense of some sort of defilement that the Lord was trying to avoid prior to His ascension to the Father immediately after His reincarnation to His flesh. But I don't think that is the intended meaning at all. It is more about an attempt to restrain Jesus to this earthly realm, when He was free to come and go between the 2 realms. And it was more necessary that He be able to do that, whereas keeping Him here was not the will of the Father except for a time to further instruct the disciples in the kingdom of God. Just wondering, Is the word "cling" the same as touch? |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 10, 2010 13:43:08 GMT -5
Cling is only used by the NIV, but I found 10 passages:
Deut 28:60; 2 Kings 5:27: Job 41:17; Ps 31:6; Ps 44:25; Ps 101:3,4; Ps 137:6; ; Jer 8:5; Jonah 2:8; Rom 12:9.
The OT passages use various words in the Hebrew: H1692, H2388, H3920, H8104 and the LXX renders them with different Greek words than the NIV does that says they each mean 'cling'.
The LXX passages which use the same Greek word for which we find the NIV rendering as 'cling' is G2853 which translates H1692 used in the passages I bolded above. I didn't find any of those passages translating to G680 - which even the NIV is rendering as 'hold' in John 20:17 and not 'cling'. The KJV uses cleave, hold fast, observe,regard and stick together which is closer to the LXX than the NIV.
I do have a copy of the Word bible software, maybe I can search the LXX and see if there are any OT passages that have G680. But I did find 36 instances in the NT using Quickverse that use the same Greek word. I will check a few and see if 'haptomai' has other renderings as well. But John only uses the word once here in his gospel - oh, and also 1 John 5:18.
Edit: so far all the NT passages use 'touch'. The difference being only in whether or not good or evil is in view. Not touching something concerns wicked things - except here in John 20:17. So I am back where I started!
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Post by Allyn on Mar 10, 2010 14:00:44 GMT -5
Cling is only used by the NIV, but I found 10 passages: Deut 28:60; 2 Kings 5:27: Job 41:17; Ps 31:6; Ps 44:25; Ps 101:3,4; Ps 137:6; ; Jer 8:5; Jonah 2:8; Rom 12:9. The OT passages use various words in the Hebrew: H1692, H2388, H3920, H8104 and the LXX renders them with different Greek words than the NIV does that says they mean 'cling'. The LXX passages which use the same Greek word for which we find the NIV rendering as 'cling' is G2853 which translates H1692 used in the passages I bolded above. I didn't find any of those passages translating to G680 - which even the NIV is rendering as 'hold' in John 20:17 and not 'cling'. I do have a copy of the Word bible software, maybe I can search the LXX and see if there are any passages that have G680. But I did find 36 instances in the NT that use the same Greek word. Thanks Robin. This even more makes me think that what Jesus was saying is defined like what Bev was saying. Jesus may not be saying don't touch me but maybe don't require me to stay. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 10, 2010 14:08:44 GMT -5
I think it must be that too Allyn - but how to prove it? It apparently isn't thru a word study. And the context is unique here because Jesus explains that He must still ascend to the Father. That particular ascension is obviously not the one the disciples observe 40 days later, since they do touch Him and probably many times between these two 'ascensions'.
This brief appearance in the garden seems to be to meet those who just discovered the empty tomb to confirm what they are to do next which He had told them precross. Which was first told them again by the angels and now by Christ Himself. Which seems a bit odd that the women had such difficulty in getting the other disciples to believe them!
No wonder we are blessed who did not hear the word of the Lord spoken by Christ, witnessed by miracles, confirmed by angels and then with a visible appearance of the resurrected Jesus - and yet we believe. What a testimony of the power of God's Spirit to work faith in those who hear the scriptures and believe.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 10, 2010 18:35:09 GMT -5
Thank you Robin, Bev, and Allyn for all of the helpful answers on this topic.
I appreciate it.
Steve
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Post by Once4all on Mar 10, 2010 19:45:08 GMT -5
The NASB also has "Stop clinging to me" and their Strong's reference is 681 rather than 680:
G681
ἅπτω
haptō
hap'-to
A primary verb; properly to fasten to, that is, (specifically) to set on fire: - kindle, light.
(This is via e-Sword, so it's possible the Strong's ref number is a typo. I have not cross-checked it with anything else.)
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