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Post by Allyn on Feb 24, 2010 17:02:28 GMT -5
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Post by stephenpatrick on Feb 25, 2010 14:51:41 GMT -5
Interesting Allyn. I went to this article at the site and read it. I encourage everyone to do so. vftonline.org/Kevin4VFT/noattend.htmHonestly, I feel the same way this person does. Most of it anyways. The only time on Sunday that I actually engage in conversation about the truths of the Bible are with my wife on the drive to and home from church. Or with my daughter or sons. And then I come to this forum for some meat. Everyday. And I mean that. This is the place I feel at home. Thats it, along with personal Bible study. Nobody, and I mean nobody talks about either the message that day (I agree with the author here concerning sermons today, not much to talk about) or anything that has to do with scripture. At least in my old dispy church Sunday school that seemed to be the thing to do . . . talk about the things we learned in class or share something we've discovered during the week. At least these folks were completely enthralled with everything that had to do with the Lord. I miss their company and fellowship. Remember a few weeks ago I asked for ideas on marketing a church and what you thought about "marketing church?" An example of an idea my pastor thought was pretty good sent to me yesterday morning. Church Advertises for Mystery Visitors on CraigsList“Need people who aren't Christians to review church service,” the ad read online. “Who: Age 20-35. Do not currently believe Jesus Christ is God. Not mad at Christians. What: Attend a church service (anonymously) and complete a survey. Earn $50.” It’s the inspiration of Jim Henderson, a Seattle evangelical Christian, former pastor and author of Jim & Casper Go to Church, who says it’s past time Christians found out “what our true customers really think...We say it’s our mission to reach out, including to nonbelievers,” Henderson, 62, says. “So why would we not want them to tell us what they think of our efforts to influence, change or even convert them?” Henderson even created a Web site allowing visitors to rate churches in their areas. Danny Westneat of The Seattle Times said of Henderson’s plan, “What’s fascinating about all this is the way the Web and consumer culture are altering even the most traditional, cloistered institutions. Everything now gets polled, ranked, exposed, debated. I suppose Henderson is right—you either go with it or get passed by.”He sent me this email yesterday, with the title of his email saying, "Is this Marketing, or what!" He thought it was a great idea. Can you imagine giving money weekly knowing it was going to pay unbelievers to give us suggestions on how to make the service inspiring for them? The apostle Paul's flesh and bones body is coming back together right now just to do a flip in his grave. I wrote back, Good morning Jim.
I don't know if getting feedback from an unbelievers viewpoint on worship service would be relevant. They don't believe, so why would they be there? I thought worship is for believers only. As for Henderson saying we should find out "what our true customers really think" tells me I wouldn't want to be a member at his church. I thought the members of that particular congregation would be the "true customers." I admit, that sometimes, unbelievers find their way into a service for help, encouragement, or support. And in the process are led to the Lord. But Henderson is wrong here. He should stick to writing books I'll never read.Thats my rant for the day. Thanks for the link. Edit: I do enjoy rock music from my time, and I do not like most of the contemporary christian music. It could be an age thing. |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 25, 2010 20:08:09 GMT -5
Steve, that's a classic example of the gradual shift that has occurred over the last decades and is still occurring, of viewing the Sunday church meeting as a conversion den for nonbelievers. "If we can only get them to come to church, half the battle is won." And paying people to come to church! That's outrageous.
Regarding your first comments about talking about the sermon after the service. More than once I had suggested to my pastor that he have an informal after-the-service meeting where folks could get together and ask questions and offer comments about the sermon. He seemed to think people would be more interested in getting to lunch than hanging around church even longer. Personally, I think HE was the one eager to get to lunch. He may have also been hesitant about the possibility of being asked direct questions about his sermon and being on the spot to answer them. There's a certain comfort level to the sermon structure in the vast majority of churches: it's a one-way exchange.
Bev
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Post by Morris on Mar 2, 2010 11:00:17 GMT -5
This is my opinion, and general experience; when people give reasons why they don't go to church, those reasons ultimately revolve around them.
"My preferences aren't meet" is the often the bottom line. The fault I find with 'church culture' is that it is thought that going to church is about them. I disagree with this notion.
Going to church is first and foremost about the Lord, naturally, but it is about what you can bring to other people. It is an opportunity to connect with fellow believers (not wait in hopes that someone talks to you). It is an opportunity to find out how you can help fellow believers in the up-coming week. It is an opportunity to encourage fellow believers.
These are deliberate actions which should be a natural consequence of love for the body of Christ. I think the message to today's church should be "stop being selfish!". Removing yourself from a local body of believers is also selfish; you are withholding from others what God intends for you to share.
When I was a teenager, I vividly remember something that my father told me in church one day. He say, "You know son, there are days when I just don't feel like worshiping, but I do it anyway. And in deciding to do that, my heart changes to desire to do it".
The same thing is true of real fellowship. I may not like all the songs, or the sermons or even some of the people in the church, but once I decide to make church about others and not myself, church becomes a very different experience.
Another excuse I've heard is that they can't go to church because "there are hypocrites in it". That is really the equivalent of saying 'I will never go to an auto garage because some are dishonest', or 'I'll never go to a birthday party because someone there may be unlikable'.
Lastly, "church" is not a Sunday service. It is a body that exists seven days a week.
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Post by mellontes on Mar 2, 2010 11:14:09 GMT -5
Should individuals go to a church service where they KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that their theology is not the least bit welcome?
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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 2, 2010 11:35:49 GMT -5
Should individuals go to a church service where they KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that their theology is not the least bit welcome? For the past month the messages were on tithing. (can you say building project coming up?) I dreaded going to listen. But, as Morris' father said, "You know son, there are days when I just don't feel like worshiping, but I do it anyway. Sadly, I do not bring up theological differences unless someone else comments on the sermon or topic afterward, which really doesn't happen. The pastor is usually busy meeting with others or newcomers, and there isn't a whole lot of time afterwards to get into a deep discussion about it. My experience is they really don't want to be critiqued. And I suppose I don't blame them. |
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Post by Allyn on Mar 2, 2010 11:40:15 GMT -5
Should individuals go to a church service where they KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that their theology is not the least bit welcome? Personally, I don't subject myself to those conditions. I worship where I am most comfortable and quite frankly that place is hard to find. I do attend irregularly where my son goes but it is not where I call home. |
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Post by Morris on Mar 2, 2010 11:46:16 GMT -5
Should individuals go to a church service where they KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that their theology is not the least bit welcome? My family did for several years, and we were still able to find fellowship, limited as it was. There was still opportunity to display love, and even receive it, despite persecution (and 'official' excommunication). We denied the "rapture", "tribulation", and "future Millennial Kingdom", and attended a Pentecostal church! And yet, without this experience, I would never have seen the true love of Christ come from individuals on the church board that I previously viewed as "not as 'spiritual' as those others". That was a lesson I'll never forget. However, given the possibility, why not find others of shared beliefs. If not possible, remember what is in common and "in humility consider others better than yourselves." |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 2, 2010 15:39:21 GMT -5
My family did for several years, and we were still able to find fellowship, limited as it was. There was still opportunity to display love, and even receive it, despite persecution (and 'official' excommunication). We denied the "rapture", "tribulation", and "future Millennial Kingdom", and attended a Pentecostal church! And yet, without this experience, I would never have seen the true love of Christ come from individuals on the church board that I previously viewed as "not as 'spiritual' as those others". That was a lesson I'll never forget. However, given the possibility, why not find others of shared beliefs. If not possible, remember what is in common and "in humility consider others better than yourselves." Sheldon, How do the church folk accept you now that you believe the Lord's coming and the resurrection are past events? For me, I have been attending dispensational churches out here for the past 20 years. I even attended FaithWay Baptist College for two of those years. I am no stranger to the churches out here. Because I have given my book to pastors and members all throughout this area, my views are very commonplace. Should we pass some of these people in a mall they won't even look at us! They certainly do not stop to talk! Fellowship is absolutely impossible - they will not allow it! I am game, but my presence would be more disruptive than edifying. I couldn't be a member, participate in the Lord's Supper, sing their futurist songs, or do a myriad of other things. There are very, very, very few people who ACTUALLY believe that eschatology has no part whether one is in Christ or not. A lot will say so, but just try to get them to fellowship together with you and the truth comes out... So very sad... |
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Post by Morris on Mar 2, 2010 17:44:11 GMT -5
Sheldon, How do the church folk accept you now that you believe the Lord's coming and the resurrection are past events? I haven't said anything to anybody as of yet, mainly because I'm still involved in studying the subject. If asked I'd no problem telling someone what I'm leaning toward though. The church I attend now is non-denominational and noted as "a local expression of the body of Christ". Most of the leaders are historicist in beliefs, though this is not required for anything, and we have people that are dispensational in belief or even in the "I don't know" camp. In fellowship it doesn't matter. No person who calls that church home is required to believe any particular view of eschatology. Even at the Pentecostal church I attended over a decade ago, we were still able to find fellowship. The key is to make the common bond that of Christ and to display His love. That could mean not talking about eschatology with someone for years. They knew we believed something different (only the pastor knew exactly what though). If they want to find out what it is, they'll ask, and then we could share in freedom and avoided being accused of instigating disunity. The hardest thing to do was to not "try to convince everybody that we were right". We had to let them see that our faith and love was not based on a belief of interpretation, but that it was based on being IN Christ. We weren't there to push an agenda. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 2, 2010 19:09:35 GMT -5
Because I have given my book to pastors and members all throughout this area, my views are very commonplace. You wrote a book? The name of the book and where it can be purchased. Thank you. |
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Post by Allyn on Mar 2, 2010 19:40:12 GMT -5
Because I have given my book to pastors and members all throughout this area, my views are very commonplace. You wrote a book? The name of the book and where it can be purchased. Thank you. [/size][/quote] Hey Ted, if its available, I would like to get one. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 2, 2010 20:13:09 GMT -5
Because I have given my book to pastors and members all throughout this area, my views are very commonplace. You wrote a book? The name of the book and where it can be purchased. Thank you. I'm sorry, I meant . . . I would love to have the name of the book and where it can be purchased.  Please. Steve |
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Post by Morris on Mar 3, 2010 10:23:39 GMT -5
Well, I feel quite special right now... I have, and have already read, Ted's book!
Here's a hint... its good.
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Post by mellontes on Mar 3, 2010 12:34:08 GMT -5
MY BOOK...
The Title: Creeds, Credentials, or Christ?
Publisher: Not published
Purchase price: Whatever the shipping costs would be or $5.00 if a face to face transaction.
Summary: It is all about the timing.
Back Page Content:
"Is Daniel’s “time of the end” closing in upon us as quickly as many prophecy pundits seem to think? (Daniel 8:17; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9) Are the last days and end of the age, as prophesied in the Bible, and in particular the New Testament, truly nearing its final countdown?
In the last hundred years, all predictions for this end-time event have failed most miserably. Find out the definite reasons why, as we look more closely into the narrative of the inspired individuals whom God used to record the actual timing of this eschatological destiny.
Realizing that Scripture must be the only acceptable standard for truth, will the reader be up to the challenge proposed by this simple sinner saved by the grace of God?"
Chapter Titles:
Chapter 01 - The Dangerous Effects of Tradition
Chapter 02 - The Deceitfulness of God?
Chapter 03 - Communication
Chapter 04 - Christ Deniers
Chapter 05 - Hermeneutics
Chapter 06 - A Sample Study of Stars
Chapter 07 - Sun, Moon, and Stars – Cosmic Commotion or Semitic Slang?
Chapter 08 - The Day of the Lord
Chapter 09 - This Generation
Chapter 10 - Postponement of the Kingdom?
Chapter 11 - The Melting Elements
Chapter 12 - It’s Just a Matter of Time!
Chapter 13 - A Garden of “Mellons”
Chapter 14 - War of the Worlds
Chapter 15 - An Example of Inconsistent Hermeneutics
Chapter 16 - Conclusion
337 pages of non-illustrative black text...
If you are interested in the terms, send me a message with your exact delivery instructions. When I am out next, I will find out how much it will cost to ship via most economic method and get back to you. It takes about one week delivery time to the mainland States.
P.S. - I recommend that every single person write their own book.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 3, 2010 13:01:05 GMT -5
MY BOOK...The Title: Creeds, Credentials, or Christ? Publisher: Not published Purchase price: Whatever the shipping costs would be or $5.00 if a face to face transaction. Thanks Ted. I usually get home around 3:30 in the afternoon, so if you can be at my house around 4:00 I will gladly give you $5.00.  |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 3, 2010 13:22:24 GMT -5
Thanks Ted. I usually get home around 3:30 in the afternoon, so if you can be at my house around 4:00 I will gladly give you $5.00. Won't be coming over there until at least 2015...Can you wait that long? |
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