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Post by Michael J Loomis on Jul 17, 2010 9:40:15 GMT -5
I'm thinking it's less of a war-zone and more of a concentration camp. Or at best a bad episode of Hogan's Hero's. Big hugs my preterist brethren.  |
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Post by didymus on Jul 17, 2010 10:24:03 GMT -5
Allyn, I happened. Boy, I take back everything I ever said about Mell. He's much milder than those CARM people. At least of the ones I ran into. I ran into a bunch of militant Calvinists. Mike, That's why I called it a war zone. But, you're right. It is like a concentration camp. You can't delete yourself. They have to do it. Oh well, I don't have to log in. Allyn, You asked what happened. Well, I don't know if you know this or not, but I'm an emotional guy. In fact, I have battled depression all my life. Well, that's no place for people like me. Most of those people have no compassion whatsoever. They don't just ask questions, they demand that you answer. If you don't answer the way they want it to be answered, the they attack. Most of the Calvinists I have met in person are very militant. Those guys are beyond militant, they are militant with a vengeance. That's how I see CARM, for what it's worth.  - anyone for a steaming beer? I sure could use it. You know, I can be a jerk myself sometimes. But, if I am told about it, or I catch it myself, I often apologize. Not those people. 2 days, and I already need a vacation. One more thing. Mental Health authorities in the world should warn their clients never to go in there. |
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Post by didymus on Jul 17, 2010 14:40:26 GMT -5
"You have been banned for the following reason: No reason was specified. Date the ban will be lifted: Never" - from CARM There you go, they have honored my request. I wish I would have told the whole thing was owned and operated by a Calvinist. Had I known that I would not have joined there. When it comes to religious movements, it is my opinion that Calvinism is the most dispicable. The reason is, it tarnishes the chacater of God. God is perfect, as such, God cannot do anything that is imperfect. There is no imperfection with God at all, and He must be true to His own nature and character. If not, what kind of God is He?  |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 20, 2010 11:52:12 GMT -5
wow. First off, I didnt see you over at CARM Didy...I would have said hello.
Secondly, not ALL of us over there at CARM are vicious and unbrotherly...case in point you have a whole group of us here as well.
Thirdly, what is all the venom towards calvinists? I am a calvinist and I dont think i am militant nor outside the body...I guess when I joined here at Allyn's invitation I didnt realize you all were so anti-calvinist.
I don't understand it and personally Tom - I think that I have shown you my heart over the last couple months enough for you to know that sweeping statements about calvinists should at the very least come with a disclaimer that not all are that way...
I must admit I am very disheartened by this thread. And I don't mean to lump you all into the anti-calvinist group especially since another on this thread is a calvinist (or at least used to be?) but I am frustrated by what "appears" to me to be a pattern I see on many threads on this forum bashing the views of calvinists.
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Post by Allyn on Jul 20, 2010 14:02:41 GMT -5
One time several weeks ago on another board I made a comment that I immediately regretted but was unable to edit out. I simply did not word it the way my heart is. I am not a calvinist but I do not have any hard feelings toward the position. I am simply not a calvinist. Wanda, you will always be welcome here. The way to God is and always will be one way and that be through Christ. The Apostle said it even better when it came to dealing with people of differing views - All I want to see in a person is Christ Jesus. I hope I have made this perfectly clear this time.  wow. First off, I didnt see you over at CARM Didy...I would have said hello. Secondly, not ALL of us over there at CARM are vicious and unbrotherly...case in point you have a whole group of us here as well. Thirdly, what is all the venom towards calvinists? I am a calvinist and I dont think i am militant nor outside the body...I guess when I joined here at Allyn's invitation I didnt realize you all were so anti-calvinist. I don't understand it and personally Tom - I think that I have shown you my heart over the last couple months enough for you to know that sweeping statements about calvinists should at the very least come with a disclaimer that not all are that way... I must admit I am very disheartened by this thread. And I don't mean to lump you all into the anti-calvinist group especially since another on this thread is a calvinist (or at least used to be?) but I am frustrated by what "appears" to me to be a pattern I see on many threads on this forum bashing the views of calvinists. |
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Post by didymus on Jul 20, 2010 17:50:03 GMT -5
Wanda, I am sorry. I certainly was not in any way referring to you as you are not in any way militant. But, if you would go into CARM and read my posts, and what others have said too and about me. I began posting in the "Arminian & Calvinism" Forum. It wasn't too long till I was a heretic. I wonder if youe really are a Calvinist. At the very least, you are not a hyper-Calvinist. Yes, you have shown me your heart, for which I am so grateful. And, I have read many of your posts. You have npt said anything that leads me to believe that you believe that God caused Dale Roberts to go into an Amish schoolhouse and torture and kill those young girls. There is nothing you ever said that indicates that God casues abortion, because He does "ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE AND WILL." But, I have encountered Calvinists that do believe that. Some even believe that God has made some men to be homosexual, after He plainly said that homosexuality is an abomination. The fact is, God is perfect, and there is no imperfection in Him at all, and I know you believe that. There is no unrighteousness with God, and He must be true to His nature. But, modern Calvinists claim that God caused and casues sin. You have never said anything that indicates that you believe any of that. So, that makes me wonder if you really are a Calvinist, except that you have a healthy faith in the grace of God, as we all should. None of us could be saved without the grace of God. If you really are a Calvinist, you sure don't show it very well. If you were offended, I am sorry. But I sure was not referring to you at all. God bless, and you thank you for your post. Some people may have just let it fester inside them. But, your sharing gave me a chance to clarify my position. - now will you join me for a spot of tea (read with British accent) |
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Post by mellontes on Jul 20, 2010 20:44:24 GMT -5
I'm thinking it's less of a war-zone and more of a concentration camp. Or at best a bad episode of Hogan's Hero's. Big hugs my preterist brethren. Awwwww, c'mon Mike...I don't think there was ever a bad episode of Hogan's Heroes! |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 20, 2010 22:10:25 GMT -5
Wanda, you are living proof that not all Calvinists are militant or rude in their attitude toward non-Calvinists and it is a blessing to know you through this forum. Unfortunately, many of the Calvinists at CARM do much to promote that negative view of Calvinists in general. That has been my experience there over the past eight years. I don't agree with Calvinist doctrine, but I still love Calvinists as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Post by wandashort on Jul 21, 2010 7:48:39 GMT -5
Wanda, I am sorry. I certainly was not in any way referring to you as you are not in any way militant. But, if you would go into CARM and read my posts, and what others have said too and about me. I began posting in the "Arminian & Calvinism" Forum. It wasn't too long till I was a heretic. I wonder if youe really are a Calvinist. At the very least, you are not a hyper-Calvinist. Yes, you have shown me your heart, for which I am so grateful. And, I have read many of your posts. You have npt said anything that leads me to believe that you believe that God caused Dale Roberts to go into an Amish schoolhouse and torture and kill those young girls. There is nothing you ever said that indicates that God casues abortion, because He does "ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE AND WILL." But, I have encountered Calvinists that do believe that. Some even believe that God has made some men to be homosexual, after He plainly said that homosexuality is an abomination. The fact is, God is perfect, and there is no imperfection in Him at all, and I know you believe that. There is no unrighteousness with God, and He must be true to His nature. But, modern Calvinists claim that God caused and casues sin. You have never said anything that indicates that you believe any of that. So, that makes me wonder if you really are a Calvinist, except that you have a healthy faith in the grace of God, as we all should. None of us could be saved without the grace of God. If you really are a Calvinist, you sure don't show it very well. If you were offended, I am sorry. But I sure was not referring to you at all. God bless, and you thank you for your post. Some people may have just let it fester inside them. But, your sharing gave me a chance to clarify my position. - now will you join me for a spot of tea (read with British accent) Thanks for the response Didy - and I hope that you read what I am going to say with hearing my HEART behind the words. Not only do I believe that God decreed AND caused all those things you listed I can bring it into a personal arena and say that I believe with ALL my heart that God decreed AND caused the man to hold me down when I was six years old and brutally and viciously rape and torture me. And I believe that God decreed AND caused that man to do it again and again for several more years causing major injuries to me physically and emotionally and spiritually. I know in my heart that God didnt waste one drop of blood or one tear or one scar but used all those experiences that HE put into motion in order to bring me closer to him 30 years later. That my relationship and my joy in the knowledge of Him is ever so much deeper and more meaningful having had those experiences. I do not regret them, I do not cry over them, I do not ask Him why...because I embrace His sovereignty 100% completely adn fully. NOT just His sovereignty when things are good...but also when they are tragically bad too. And I can tell you that the journey towards complete healing from those events have brought so many incredible people into my life and those experiences have richly blessed me as well. And here is another calvinist shocker for you...since I also embrace that God draws His elect and it is up to Him whom He chooses - that rapist might very well be saved and we may together be in body eternally. That is how I can rest in the knowledge that God is in control of ALL things. Nothing happens without His command that it be so. That comforts me. Did it comfort me while I was broken, bleeding, and alone all those years? No, but only because as a child I didnt understand. Now as an adult I can rejoice in all that God is and how He has guided my steps every bit of the way and it helps me with current trials and tribulations and events...because I do not despair anymore. Hopefully this wont make you think less of me...blessings, w |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 21, 2010 7:53:03 GMT -5
Wanda, you are living proof that not all Calvinists are militant or rude in their attitude toward non-Calvinists and it is a blessing to know you through this forum. Unfortunately, many of the Calvinists at CARM do much to promote that negative view of Calvinists in general. That has been my experience there over the past eight years. I don't agree with Calvinist doctrine, but I still love Calvinists as my brothers and sisters in Christ. Thanks Bev...I really appreciate you saying this. I actually don't go over to the Calivinist section...enough strife in the preterist one...lol. And absolutely I consider anyone who embraces Christ as their saviour to be my sister or brother. And I am not so arrogant to say that I am right with my calvinistic views...in fact I do struggle with some parts of it now that I am a preterist and am working through some of that right now. (Mellontes is one of my go to guys with endless questions...hahaha lucky him! sure i am driving him nuts!). But sovereignty is one area that I dont' believe I will ever stop embracing ... blessings, dear sister. w |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 21, 2010 10:32:07 GMT -5
One time several weeks ago on another board I made a comment that I immediately regretted but was unable to edit out. I simply did not word it the way my heart is. I am not a calvinist but I do not have any hard feelings toward the position. I am simply not a calvinist. Wanda, you will always be welcome here. The way to God is and always will be one way and that be through Christ. The Apostle said it even better when it came to dealing with people of differing views - All I want to see in a person is Christ Jesus. I hope I have made this perfectly clear this time. No worries my friend. No blood no foul. (that is hockeyease not calvinismease...lol) I consider you to be a strong friend that I have the utmost respect for! blessings, w |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 21, 2010 10:40:36 GMT -5
Wanda, were you a believer in the Lord Jesus at the age of 6 when those awful things happened to you? Were your parents?
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Post by wandashort on Jul 21, 2010 11:13:17 GMT -5
Wanda, were you a believer in the Lord Jesus at the age of 6 when those awful things happened to you? Were your parents? Hey Robin! I am walking out the door for an appt but I wanted to answer this quickly... If you asked me at 6yrs old if I believed in Jesus I would have said yes based on what I had been taught vs. what I actually believed or understood. I was raised in a Lutheran (ELCA then Bahamas Synod) church that my parents were very involved in throughout my life (now they are methodists...go figure). So, yes and yes. I am sure you have a follow up question so I won't anticipate... lol ... just remember that you are much more well versed than I am with scriptures and theology so go gently! I will always answer what I believe honestly and openly but may not always have scripture at my fingertips to re-inforce or explain my thoughts. Blessings, sis |
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Post by didymus on Jul 21, 2010 14:00:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the response Didy - and I hope that you read what I am going to say with hearing my HEART behind the words. Not only do I believe that God decreed AND caused all those things you listed I can bring it into a personal arena and say that I believe with ALL my heart that God decreed AND caused the man to hold me down when I was six years old and brutally and viciously rape and torture me. And I believe that God decreed AND caused that man to do it again and again for several more years causing major injuries to me physically and emotionally and spiritually. I know in my heart that God didnt waste one drop of blood or one tear or one scar but used all those experiences that HE put into motion in order to bring me closer to him 30 years later. That my relationship and my joy in the knowledge of Him is ever so much deeper and more meaningful having had those experiences. I do not regret them, I do not cry over them, I do not ask Him why...because I embrace His sovereignty 100% completely adn fully. NOT just His sovereignty when things are good...but also when they are tragically bad too. And I can tell you that the journey towards complete healing from those events have brought so many incredible people into my life and those experiences have richly blessed me as well. And here is another calvinist shocker for you...since I also embrace that God draws His elect and it is up to Him whom He chooses - that rapist might very well be saved and we may together be in body eternally. That is how I can rest in the knowledge that God is in control of ALL things. Nothing happens without His command that it be so. That comforts me. Did it comfort me while I was broken, bleeding, and alone all those years? No, but only because as a child I didnt understand. Now as an adult I can rejoice in all that God is and how He has guided my steps every bit of the way and it helps me with current trials and tribulations and events...because I do not despair anymore. Hopefully this wont make you think less of me...blessings, w I would like to see Scripture that says that God causes the rape of 6 year old girls. |
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Post by Allyn on Jul 21, 2010 16:18:46 GMT -5
I don't wish to pursue anything more than you are will ing to share Wanda, but I really do not know where you are coming from with regards to what happened to you as a child. I too had some bad experiences as a kid (not like yours but bad none the less) and I have known Christ all of my life. Did God make those things happen so that I would turn out better than I might have otherwise or was it just that I was a victim of a person who himself had more problems then one might imagine and who was not truly a follower of Christ? I was a victim and my dad, who was a pastor and a professed christian, made our lives miserable because of his vanity, sexual lusts and womanizing. He died a lonely man of cancer and he never stopped his occasional romps in the sack with married and single women and produced children from those escapades. But all along he claimed he was a servant of God. I didn't buy it then and I don't to this day. Wanda, I am sorry. I certainly was not in any way referring to you as you are not in any way militant. But, if you would go into CARM and read my posts, and what others have said too and about me. I began posting in the "Arminian & Calvinism" Forum. It wasn't too long till I was a heretic. I wonder if youe really are a Calvinist. At the very least, you are not a hyper-Calvinist. Yes, you have shown me your heart, for which I am so grateful. And, I have read many of your posts. You have npt said anything that leads me to believe that you believe that God caused Dale Roberts to go into an Amish schoolhouse and torture and kill those young girls. There is nothing you ever said that indicates that God casues abortion, because He does "ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE AND WILL." But, I have encountered Calvinists that do believe that. Some even believe that God has made some men to be homosexual, after He plainly said that homosexuality is an abomination. The fact is, God is perfect, and there is no imperfection in Him at all, and I know you believe that. There is no unrighteousness with God, and He must be true to His nature. But, modern Calvinists claim that God caused and casues sin. You have never said anything that indicates that you believe any of that. So, that makes me wonder if you really are a Calvinist, except that you have a healthy faith in the grace of God, as we all should. None of us could be saved without the grace of God. If you really are a Calvinist, you sure don't show it very well. If you were offended, I am sorry. But I sure was not referring to you at all. God bless, and you thank you for your post. Some people may have just let it fester inside them. But, your sharing gave me a chance to clarify my position. - now will you join me for a spot of tea (read with British accent) Thanks for the response Didy - and I hope that you read what I am going to say with hearing my HEART behind the words. Not only do I believe that God decreed AND caused all those things you listed I can bring it into a personal arena and say that I believe with ALL my heart that God decreed AND caused the man to hold me down when I was six years old and brutally and viciously rape and torture me. And I believe that God decreed AND caused that man to do it again and again for several more years causing major injuries to me physically and emotionally and spiritually. I know in my heart that God didnt waste one drop of blood or one tear or one scar but used all those experiences that HE put into motion in order to bring me closer to him 30 years later. That my relationship and my joy in the knowledge of Him is ever so much deeper and more meaningful having had those experiences. I do not regret them, I do not cry over them, I do not ask Him why...because I embrace His sovereignty 100% completely adn fully. NOT just His sovereignty when things are good...but also when they are tragically bad too. And I can tell you that the journey towards complete healing from those events have brought so many incredible people into my life and those experiences have richly blessed me as well. And here is another calvinist shocker for you...since I also embrace that God draws His elect and it is up to Him whom He chooses - that rapist might very well be saved and we may together be in body eternally. That is how I can rest in the knowledge that God is in control of ALL things. Nothing happens without His command that it be so. That comforts me. Did it comfort me while I was broken, bleeding, and alone all those years? No, but only because as a child I didnt understand. Now as an adult I can rejoice in all that God is and how He has guided my steps every bit of the way and it helps me with current trials and tribulations and events...because I do not despair anymore. Hopefully this wont make you think less of me...blessings, w |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 21, 2010 21:26:24 GMT -5
Wanda, my first question is how fond are you of this memory? Does it make your heart yearn with compassion for this brutal man so that you pray night and day for his salvation? Or do you pray at all that he be recompensed for what he did like king David did over wicked men? I ask because there is a place for both types of prayer. David who had a heart for God, loved what the Lord loved and hated what the Lord hated. And that was because his knowledge of God thru His word gave him discernment over which was which. But even when David's troubles were his own fault because of his sin, he never accused God of injustice. Which is what this doctrine that has come down from Calvin does teach. Perhaps it is true that God treats the wicked in such a way, but not the righteous. And if we have been made righteous by our faith in Christ, this is not how we ought to understand that such trials as this are from Him. There is a difference between a trial that is sent to turn to you faith and a trial that comes by the one who only seeks to kill and destroy. All you need do is look up Molech or any other idol worshiped by Israel to see the nature you describe is attributable to Baal - not the sovereign Lord. And that is why it is deemed idolatry.
Stated as gently as I possibly could,
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Post by didymus on Jul 21, 2010 22:53:49 GMT -5
Robin, I have a question. Are you saying that some of Calvin's teachings take some attributes of Baal and transfers them to the living God? - yup, it really is tea this time |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 22, 2010 7:34:00 GMT -5
I am saying I thought quite clearly that the Calvinist god is an idol.
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Post by didymus on Jul 22, 2010 8:19:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, Robin. - it's coffee this time |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 9:57:21 GMT -5
I don't wish to pursue anything more than you are will ing to share Wanda, but I really do not know where you are coming from with regards to what happened to you as a child. I too had some bad experiences as a kid (not like yours but bad none the less) and I have known Christ all of my life. Did God make those things happen so that I would turn out better than I might have otherwise or was it just that I was a victim of a person who himself had more problems then one might imagine and who was not truly a follower of Christ? I was a victim and my dad, who was a pastor and a professed christian, made our lives miserable because of his vanity, sexual lusts and womanizing. He died a lonely man of cancer and he never stopped his occasional romps in the sack with married and single women and produced children from those escapades. But all along he claimed he was a servant of God. I didn't buy it then and I don't to this day. |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 10:17:03 GMT -5
Wanda, my first question is how fond are you of this memory? Does it make your heart yearn with compassion for this brutal man so that you pray night and day for his salvation? Or do you pray at all that he be recompensed for what he did like king David did over wicked men? I ask because there is a place for both types of prayer. David who had a heart for God, loved what the Lord loved and hated what the Lord hated. And that was because his knowledge of God thru His word gave him discernment over which was which. But even when David's troubles were his own fault because of his sin, he never accused God of injustice. Which is what this doctrine that has come down from Calvin does teach. Perhaps it is true that God treats the wicked in such a way, but not the righteous. And if we have been made righteous by our faith in Christ, this is not how we ought to understand that such trials as this are from Him. There is a difference between a trial that is sent to turn to you faith and a trial that comes by the one who only seeks to kill and destroy. All you need do is look up Molech or any other idol worshiped by Israel to see the nature you describe is attributable to Baal - not the sovereign Lord. And that is why it is deemed idolatry. Stated as gently as I possibly could, Hey Robin...I hear your heart in this and appreciate the gentleness of it. To answer your question - I am not fond of the memories. I do not relish them nor enjoy when I am confronted by them whether in nightmares that keep me from sleeping more than 2hrs a night or whether while in therapy and I am forced to relive it in order to break it's hold over me or whether it is thrust upon me due to a triggering event. However, I am slowly but steadily with the help of professionals and a few supportive friends healing finally. Severing the connections that bring about flashbacks (i have C-PTSD) as well as breaking through the lies that I believed for so long. It is a difficult process that involves a lot of pain and fear yet I still feel God even in these details. I say that because I can look back and see how He put things and people and events into my life all along (some good, some bad, some evil, some loving) the way (and continues too!) that have brought me closer to Him. Closer by helping me to see that I am powerless and He is my only refuge. Closer by igniting the passion to understand His word and how we are living in the kingdom now. Closer by forcing me to my knees in despair and hopelessness for seasons so that I can see the good and beauty and magnificence in His power. I wish I could say I pray night and day for all who have hurt me but that wouldnt be true. I have forgiven, I have left all bitterness behind (took many years!), I have prayed sporadically for him (but not recently admittedly) and I have examined my heart to find any lingering areas of sin and do this constantly! I have through the course of my life prayed for justice, revenge, etc but once I recognized that I was putting my own feelings on a pedestal I was horrified. Because I am NO better than him. NO better. Because I am a fallen, broken sinner and continue to sin daily and I strive to lay my heart bare and allow God to use whomever He wills to help me in my spiritual maturity process. Did I answer your question? I tend to ramble a bit when discussing these things so I apologize. Also, it is such a new thing for me to not have deep shame about this that I carried for over 35 years...and speaking out is a delight but it is scary too because some could use this info against me - but I have always said and typed what was on my heart to say and type. lol. sometimes I do need a muzzle! some of you here know that! |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 10:21:16 GMT -5
I am saying I thought quite clearly that the Calvinist god is an idol. I know that this is one thing that you have said about calvinists. I usually don't ask for details on the other sites because it would become a war with the antiprets and not helpful but since over here on Allyn's site he runs a safer feeling forum it would help me tremendously if you could expound on your views of calvinism. The best way for me to process info is if you would kindly bullet dot a list of specific reasons why you feel calvinism is non biblical and idolistic. Scripture is helpful but honestly, jsut give me the Chapt/verses adn let me look them up because this is somethign i will print out nad take home with me to ponder over. Thanks Robin! |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 11:04:37 GMT -5
I would like to see Scripture that says that God causes the rape of 6 year old girls. Here are some: ++++ Gen. 50:20 And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. Ex. 4:11 And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" Ex. 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them...that you may know that I am the Lord." Ex. 33:19 And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion. Deut. 32:39 See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is I who puts to death and gives life. I have wounded, and it is I who heals; and there is no one who can deliver from My hand. 1 Sam. 2:6-7 The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts. Job 1:1 And Job said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." Job 42:2 I know that Thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted. Ps. 33:14,15 From His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who understands all their works. Ps. 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. Ps. 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in seas and in all deeps. Ps. 148:8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds; stormy wind, fulfilling His word. Pr. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Pr. 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way? Pr. 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand. Isaiah 14:27 For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back? Isaiah 26:12 Lord, Thou wilt establish peace for us, since Thou hast also performed for us all our works Isaiah 46:9-11 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and brings out a weapon for its work; and I have created the destroyer to ruin. Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Jer. 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. Jer. 18:11 Thus says the Lord, "I am fashioning evil against you and devising a plan against you…" Jer. 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me? Lam. 3:31 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness. Lam. 3:37-39 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth? Why should any living mortal, or any man, offer complaint in view of his sins? Daniel 11:36 For that which is decreed will be done Mt. 10:29,30 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs on your head are numbered. Rom. 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires Rom. 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. 2 Cor. 7:9 For you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, in order that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. ++++ But my favorite verse of all is one that I have written out on my leg covering some ciggarette burn scars: Isaiah 41:10 "fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." So, now instead of everytime looking at those scars and being transported immediately back to that time he did that to me instead I am immediately reminded of God being with me...back then and now and forever. Blessings, w |
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Post by didymus on Jul 22, 2010 11:52:52 GMT -5
I am sorry Wanda, But none of those verses answers my question. None suggests that God would have anything to do with inflicting that kind of pain on a six year old girl.  |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 12:09:50 GMT -5
I am sorry Wanda, But none of those verses answers my question. None suggests that God would have anything to do with inflicting that kind of pain on a six year old girl. Dont be sorry Tom, I think this conversation is very beneficial and edifying. When I read those verses I see that: 1. God is in control 2. God is the creator of both good and evil 3. God ordains the actions of all people. 4. God alone understands why each specific act is performed 5. God should not be questioned as to why He does the things He does 6. God is in charge of every single thing...from a leaf falling from a tree to a 6yr old girl being brutally harmed to a million people being hurt by a tsunami....and on and on. everything. 7. All things occur to the glory of God. Anyway, that is what I see...what are your thoughts? Blessings, brother |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 22, 2010 12:39:47 GMT -5
Wanda,
To say that God is watching over the evil and the good is not the same as saying He ordains and decrees evil on the righteous so He can then bring good from it so they can glorify Him for His tender mercies. Which is what I hear you saying as well as from the scriptures you pulled. Sin belongs to man, not God and the blame for it should lie with man. He is not confusing who He will bless with those He will curse, instead He has been very clear about it - even establishing His law with His own so that they might know to do right.
It is the devil who is arbitrary and capricious and cannot be trusted to do good or right even when men who serve him do no wrong to him or one another. He is not a lover of goodness or mercy or truth. He is rather a deceiver and a liar and the biggest lie he has ever instigated was about the nature of the true God and what can be expected from Him.
I don't doubt your love for God and faith in Christ today, but your doctrine makes which God you are trying to glorify with your testimony confusing. On the other hand, those who do not know the true God have no promise of protection, let alone answers to their prayers. I suspect that may be closer to what was the case when you were 6. You did say your parents went from Lutheranism to Methodist. Sounds like there may have been a change of heart from one of mere religion to an actual relationship? I am only guessing, but that makes more sense to me than your testimony so far.
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Post by Once4all on Jul 22, 2010 12:56:57 GMT -5
I don't believe that God orchestrates every thing that happens in our lives, and certainly not the tragic things like what Wanda endured. Such horribleness is the result of man's free will without God in their lives. Our own selfishness is the root of the evil men and women perform. The first sin in the garden was a result of a human being giving in to selfish desire. If God controlled every thought and action of man there would be no reason for him to give us of His spirit and no reason for Scripture to repeatedly exhort believers to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh. If God maintains such a detailed level of control over His creation, not only is life without personal meaning, but the commands of God become unnecessary and the Scriptures themselves become a farce. That's my view this lovely Thursday morning.  |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 13:39:45 GMT -5
Wanda, To say that God is watching over the evil and the good is not the same as saying He ordains and decrees evil on the righteous so He can then bring good from it so they can glorify Him for His tender mercies. Which is what I hear you saying as well as from the scriptures you pulled. Sin belongs to man, not God and the blame for it should lie with man. He is not confusing who He will bless with those He will curse, instead He has been very clear about it - even establishing His law with His own so that they might know to do right. It is the devil who is arbitrary and capricious and cannot be trusted to do good or right even when men who serve him do no wrong to him or one another. He is not a lover of goodness or mercy or truth. He is rather a deceiver and a liar and the biggest lie he has ever instigated was about the nature of the true God and what can be expected from Him. I don't doubt your love for God and faith in Christ today, but your doctrine makes which God you are trying to glorify with your testimony confusing. On the other hand, those who do not know the true God have no promise of protection, let alone answers to their prayers. I suspect that may be closer to what was the case when you were 6. You did say your parents went from Lutheranism to Methodist. Sounds like there may have been a change of heart from one of mere religion to an actual relationship? I am only guessing, but that makes more sense to me than your testimony so far. Oh sorry, I guess I left out the part where I went from Lutheran church to a PCA Presbyterian Church and was there 7 years until we (8 of us) were forced to leave (a year and a half ago) due to our embracing full preterism. My parents never "subscribed" to TULIP and only attended that church because my son and I were attending and they wanted to worship at the same place with us. I feel God lead me straight to that church by way of my son connecting with the youth group, and that in turn opened my heart through serving in ministry and becoming dear friends with Alan and Gail Ann Bondar. My parents went onto a Methodist church due to being steadfast against the sovereignty of God and choose to believe that man has the free will and choice to go against God. I don't think any less or any different about them for those beliefs and boy do we have some interesting conversations but nothing they have ever shown me or told me from their studies even rocks my belief in God decreeing, ordaining, and causing all things. My question is this - if God merely sees all or watches all evil and doesnt step in to change it or stop it then the evil must be more powerful than He is. Or to say that bad things happen because of our sin then I would wonder what sin was prevelent in my life at 6yrs old (tho i am SURE I sinned as I believe we are all born totally depraved...) that would cause such a consequence to occur? I know that I don't express things clearly all the time .. AND I will admit that I may be blending calvinism, preterism, reformed, lutheranism, etc all into a mishmash and that is why I desire to take specific things on my heart and discuss and study them. And this weekend I will look at some areas of calvinism and post them in a separate thread here and I would hope that you and all reading would respond so that I may learn. I am only responding with what I know and believe at this moment in my life. I am willing to be challenged and want to understand those that do not agree with me in order to examine the truth of it and how it settles in my own mind and heart - God will allow me my "aha" moments as He knows I can handle them and I thank Him for this sort of oppty to have discussion and fellowship with you and the others. blessings. |
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Post by wandashort on Jul 22, 2010 13:50:49 GMT -5
I don't believe that God orchestrates every thing that happens in our lives, and certainly not the tragic things like what Wanda endured. Such horribleness is the result of man's free will without God in their lives. Our own selfishness is the root of the evil men and women perform. The first sin in the garden was a result of a human being giving in to selfish desire. If God controlled every thought and action of man there would be no reason for him to give us of His spirit and no reason for Scripture to repeatedly exhort believers to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh. If God maintains such a detailed level of control over His creation, not only is life without personal meaning, but the commands of God become unnecessary and the Scriptures themselves become a farce. That's my view this lovely Thursday morning. It IS a lovely morning! Your second paragraph is something I want to really look at and ponder over the weekend because you raise an excellent point. I dont know what to make of it! As for the last paragraph - again I don't know why the exhortations are strewed all through scripture but I do know in my heart that through sin (whether my own or that which is anothers that affects me) and recognizing it and grieving over it and hating it all brings me to the realization of just how huge the gift of grace is. My life certainly doesnt feel meaningless and I dont feel like a puppet or robot at all. But I can see the truth of that statement and realize I can't have it both ways...either my thoughts and actions are my own or they are God's. I say they are God's but that i benefit still from the motions made and I learn lessons, I am reproofed, I am humbled, I am spurred on to spread the gospel, help the hurting, come alongside others in the body... lol...I dont know if I am even speaking clearly now...i am interested in your thoughts but may not be able to respond until tomorrow or saturday. blessings to you all and I am so grateful for the tone and the feeling of love that abounds here. |
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Post by Allyn on Jul 22, 2010 14:08:34 GMT -5
I don't believe that God orchestrates every thing that happens in our lives, and certainly not the tragic things like what Wanda endured. Such horribleness is the result of man's free will without God in their lives. Our own selfishness is the root of the evil men and women perform. The first sin in the garden was a result of a human being giving in to selfish desire. If God controlled every thought and action of man there would be no reason for him to give us of His spirit and no reason for Scripture to repeatedly exhort believers to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh. If God maintains such a detailed level of control over His creation, not only is life without personal meaning, but the commands of God become unnecessary and the Scriptures themselves become a farce. That's my view this lovely Thursday morning. Good thought, Bev. Here is one I have. If God wishes for all to be saved then why is it He gives them over to destruction? How is it that Satan had such a hold on something that God said would be entirely taken from him at the cross? |
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