Hebrews 9

[Allyn]

Mtymousie,

You have touched on this before and I asked about it before but have not heard from you but will you go into some detail concerning your view on Hebrews 9?

At CARM you said:

No two people agree on everything, including any two preterists. I firmly and steadfastly believe that those same witnesses who SAW Jesus ascend into the clouds SAW Him descend in the same manner just like the angels said they would (Acts 1:9-11). I firmly and steadfastly believe that if they did not SEE the High Priest appear again without sin unto their salvation, then neither they nor you nor I are saved (Heb.9:24-28).

[mtymousie]

My take on the full import of Heb. 9:24-28 is presented in the short article below:

THE DAY OF REDEMPTION

If we are still waiting on a future coming, my
friend, then we are without hope. Why? Because we
would still be in our sins if the High Priest Jesus
Christ had not yet returned the second time without
sin.

Consider these words of Jesus: "AND WHEN YE SHALL SEE
JERUSALEM COMPASSED WITH ARMIES, then know that THE
DESOLATION thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in
Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are
in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that
are in the countries enter thereinto. FOR THESE BE THE
DAYS OF VENGEANCE, THAT ALL THINGS WRITTEN MAY BE
FULFILLED. But woe unto them that are with child, and
to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall
be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this
people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations: and
Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until
the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there
shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the
stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with
perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's
hearts
failing them for fear, and for looking after those
things which are coming on the earth: for the powers
of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the
Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great
glory. AND WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS,
THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; FOR YOUR
REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH. And he spake to them a
parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When
they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own
selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise
ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye
that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say
unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till
all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away:
but my words shall not pass away." (Luke 21:20-33)

Notice that Jesus clearly states that when that
generation saw those things begin to come to pass,
beginning with Jerusalem surrounded by armies, THEN
they were to look up because their "REDEMPTION DRAWETH
NIGH". Redemption from what? SIN!

Consider the prophecy of Daniel that foretold of the
DESOLATION that Jesus spoke of above and also "TO MAKE
AND END OF SINS, AND TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR
INIQUITY" that would take place at the same time:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon
thy holy city, to finish the transgression, AND TO
MAKE AN END OF SINS, AND TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR
INIQUITY, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that
from the going forth of the commandment to restore and
to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall
be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the
street shall be built again, and the wall, even in
troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks
shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the
people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the
city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be
with a flood, and unto the end of the war DESOLATIONS
are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with
many for one week: and in the midst of the week he
shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall
make it desolate, even until the consummation, and
that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:24-27)

Now in perfect harmony with the above, consider
something Peter said AFTER Christ had already
fulfilled the suffering of the cross:

"But those things, which God before had shewed by the
mouth of all his prophets, THAT CHRIST SHOULD SUFFER,
HE HATH SO FULFILLED. Repent ye therefore, and be
converted, THAT YOUR SINS MAY BE BLOTTED OUT, WHEN
THE TIMES OF REFRESHING SHALL COME FROM THE PRESENCE
OF THE LORD; AND HE SHALL SEND JESUS CHRIST, which
before was preached unto you: WHOM THE HEAVEN MUST
RECEIVE UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy
prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:18-21)

Peter spoke the above after Christ had already been to
the cross, rose, and ascended back into heaven, my
friend. Notice "WHEN" Peter said their sins would be
"blotted out". The day of redemption, the day
of reconciliation, the times of refreshing, and the
times of restitution of all things were still in the
FUTURE from when Peter was speaking.

Consider the pattern that God established for
forgiveness/redemption. While many other passages
refer to the particulars of the cleansing and clothing
(including the bells on the bottom of the high
priest's robe so he would be heard and not killed
when he went in), the ceremony itself is best
described in Leviticus 16: The high priest had to be
properly clothed and anointed before entering the holy
of holies with the sin sacrifice for the people or
else he would die. No man could be in the tabernacle
when the high priest went in (verse 17). So all the
Israelites had to wait outside until the high priest
appeared alive again without the sin sacrifice
before they knew that God had accepted the sacrifice
and they were redeemed from their sins for that year.

The letter to the Hebrews is powerful in many
respects, especially in that the writer very clearly
and repeatedly uses the pattern of the old covenant to
prove the validity of the new.

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made
with hands, which are the figures of the true; but
into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of
God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself
often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place
every year with blood of others; For then must he
often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared
to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it
is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins
of many; and UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM SHALL HE
APPEAR THE SECOND TIME WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION."
(Heb.9:24-28)

Again, the letter above was written after Christ
ascended into the true holy of holies in front of
those witnesses (Acts 1:9-11) and before He returned
out the second time in 70 AD and clearly PROVES THE
REASON that those witnesses were looking for Him:
redemption/salvation from sin! If Jesus Christ did not
return when He said He would, folks, then those back
then as well as we today are STILL in our sins.

JMO,
Dale
preteristmouse

[Allyn]

That is very powerful, Dale. Thanks, and I will be meditating on this.

[MoGrace2U]

That passage in Hebrews is certainly packed full! Who did Christ appear to the 2nd time that were waiting for Him? Is it only those who were living who were waiting for His 2nd coming, or could it not also have been those in Sheol to whom He went the first time after the cross?

Speaking of the OT saints who were waiting for the promise to come to us:

(Heb 11:39-40 KJV) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: {40} God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The context here in Heb 9 is the priesthood of Christ and His once for all sacrifice for sin - which is what His first physical appearance was for. His 2nd appearance which was not to be visible to the living - rather as a thief to them - was to deliver the resurrection of the dead to those saints which would see Him.

They were the ones who had not yet been justified by the blood of Christ.

(Joel 3:20-21 KJV) But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. {21} For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

And the comparison here:

(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Is pointing to Israel's hope wherein after they are raised, they are to be judged. This is not the NT believer's hope who having already received the promise of eternal life in this life by the Spirit, when they pass thru death are be given a spiritual body at that time. No Israel's resurrection was to be like Lazarus' - in the flesh; and it would only be after that judgment that they could enter into the kingdom. This is a judgment based on works. Only OT Israel was to be judged based on that to determine their faith.

And if you think about it, it is the only way the lake of fire can be applied to those who have been deemed goats. This is not the world at large who is to be judged - cause elsewhere there are many passages that assure us the wicked heathens do not rise again. But those who had a part in the promise given to Abraham - they do face the danger of the 2nd death in their rising again.

The NT saint however does not, for he never ceases to live and reign with Christ - even though his earthly body dies.

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That is what Jesus said to Martha before the cross - just before He raised up Lazarus. And there is also this curious passage in Matthew:

(Mat 27:52-53 KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, {53} And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Would these not have been like Lazarus who had witnessed the coming of the Lord in that generation but who died before the cross? Their resurrection back to earthly life allowed them to receive the promise which we all now have.

How much proof do we need that the OT dead were in fact raised at the last trump just before Jerusalem was destroyed? The resurrection of the dead is not something the living were to see with eyes of flesh - any more than they would see Jesus coming in literal clouds.

But when they were caught up to the heavenly visions of John and Paul, they would certainly understand what had occurred and know their hope had been secured.

[Allyn]

Another great post from Robin. Very thought out.

Robin, do you find what you wrote to be in addition to the way Dale believe the Hebrew passage?

[MoGrace2U]

Sept 21, 2008 14:56:28 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Another great post from Robin. Very thought out.

Robin, do you find what you wrote to be in addition to the way Dale believe the Hebrew passage?

Pretty much that was all I was doing. I did read Ed Steven's article about the Resurrection and don't quite agree with him. I don't think OT Israel would be raised up a spirit body to stand in the judgment.

Job stated that his hope was that in his flesh he would see God. And since we know that God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell, it got me to wondering how this was possible. I assume that death is how we pass from one realm into the other - whether it is death to this physical body or death to the spirit - death is the result. Only those made spiritually alive will not be hurt of the 2nd death. Which is why I think the resurrection of the just and unjust is back to the fleshly life like Lazarus but only until the judgment is determined for who will enter the kingdom and who will go into the lake. It is a resurrection for those who have not yet been justified by the blood of Christ and born again of the Spirit. It is a promise that reflects both the goodness and severity of God.

If I were an ethnic Jew today or a Christian in name only I would be worried....

[Once4all]

Good stuff, Robin.

I just have some observations. Probably nothing new to anyone here.

I noticed the similarity between what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24 and what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:

1 Corinthians 7:26-31

26 I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is.

27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

28 But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.

29 But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;

30 and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess;

31 and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away.


Matthew 24:19-32

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


When Jesus spoke of it, it was yet future. Paul's writing presents it as more imminent. Also, Paul speaks of not marrying and, if married, living as though you are not. This, I believe, is to prevent pregnancies and babies being present among the elect when Jesus returned, which coincides with Jesus' comment "woe to those with child and to those who give suck."

Regarding Dale's comments in the OP: If Jesus Christ did not
return when He said He would, folks, then those back
then as well as we today are STILL in our sins.

In 1 Corinthians 15:16-17, Paul ties the resurrection of Jesus with forgiveness of sins, not his coming again:

16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;

17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

[MoGrace2U]

Hi once4all,
That passage in 1 Cor 15:16-17 is an interesting argument by Paul. When he says "if the dead are not raised" - the Greek says "are not being raised" - as a present active participle if I recall. As in rising as he speaks. So what seems to be his argument is that if the dead are not rising then his testimony that Jesus has been raised is spurious. Its as though this HAS been what he has been saying already and that the 1st proves the 2nd and therefore the reverse wording here is that if he is lying about the dead rising now then he was lying about knowing Jesus was raised.

Hope that is clearer than what it sounds...

[Michael J Loomis]

I think you are right on the mark.

If A then B.

A is necessary for B.

And B is a result of A.

Therefore if no B then no A.

Most...Mooooooooossssstttt people don't see this.

Paul was arguing not for a future resurrection...But for one that was currently taking place, through the spreading of the gospel, in fulfillment of Ezekiel 37's valley of dry bones.

8) Mike

[mtymousie]

IMO, 1 Cor.15:12 shows that Paul was dealing with some who were going around saying that Christ did not rise from the dead. If Christ did not rise then all faith is vain. Why? If Christ did not rise from the dead then He certainly did not ascend into the Holy of Holies and thus He did not appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

JMO,
Dale
preteristmouse

[mellontes]

Sept 23, 2008 12:25:07 GMT -5 mtymousie said:

IMO, 1 Cor.15:12 shows that Paul was dealing with some who were going around saying that Christ did not rise from the dead. If Christ did not rise then all faith is vain. Why? If Christ did not rise from the dead then He certainly did not ascend into the Holy of Holies and thus He did not appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

JMO,
Dale
preteristmouse

Also very true. What Robin and PMike have realized is that the dead were being raised at that time. The significance this has to those who hold to a future final resurrection is devastating. Both points are connected to Christ's rising from the dead. Most people believe that Christ's resurrection was physical in nature and hence expect a future physical resurrection as a result. This is one reason MANY believe in a yet future resurrection.

However, may I ask where Christ's physical body was WHEN CHrist was raised? That's right, it lay limp in the tomb. Christ was raised from the dead INTO His physical body as proof that He had risen. The spiritual significance of CHrist's resurrection would have gone unnoticed (and likely mistaken for defeat) if He ascended directly into heaven after been raised from the dead. The fact that He was raised into His physical body gave the disciples "physical" proof that the resurrection had happened. Way too much is made of a "physical" resurrection. How could these inidviduals that were "being raised" have anything to do with a physical, fleshy resurrection?

Blessings, Mellontes

[Once4all]

I like what you said, about Jesus being resurrected into his own body as proof of the resurrection. But as for resurrections occuring at the time of Paul's writing, what about 1 Corinthians 15:23? - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming

[mellontes]

Sept 23, 2008 17:13:09 GMT -5 Once4all said:

I like what you said, about Jesus being resurrected into his own body as proof of the resurrection. But as for resurrections occuring at the time of Paul's writing, what about 1 Corinthians 15:23? - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming

Awwww, I hate tough questions. Maybe this is is for His fifth coming.... Yeah, yeah, bad joke... Ill try to answer but don't hold your breath - it may be hazardous to your health...but not tonight.

Blessings, Mellontes

[MoGrace2U]

Sept 23, 2008 17:13:09 GMT -5 Once4all said:

I like what you said, about Jesus being resurrected into his own body as proof of the resurrection. But as for resurrections occuring at the time of Paul's writing, what about 1 Corinthians 15:23? - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming

I don't think the OT saints were raised until just about the time that Jerusalem was sacked. But NT saints were rising as they died. That is the difference between their hope and ours - we do not spend anytime apart from the Lord.

But even if nobody was raised until the 2nd coming, it still doesn't put us as having to wait at all now that the kingdom is come!

[mellontes]

Sept 23, 2008 22:56:10 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Sept 23, 2008 17:13:09 GMT -5 Once4all said:

I like what you said, about Jesus being resurrected into his own body as proof of the resurrection. But as for resurrections occuring at the time of Paul's writing, what about 1 Corinthians 15:23? - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming

I don't think the OT saints were raised until just about the time that Jerusalem was sacked. But NT saints were rising as they died. That is the difference between their hope and ours - we do not spend anytime apart from the Lord.

But even if nobody was raised until the 2nd coming, it still doesn't put us as having to wait at all now that the kingdom is come!

Doesn't Hebrews 9:8 talk about the way into heaven not being open yet while the earthly temple stood?

And if this is true then NT saints would go to sheol just as the OT saints did. But that gives rise (no pun intended) to another question.

I don't think anyone entered the true heavenly realm until the 2nd coming.

Aaaaa, I don't know enough to even give my impressions. The resurrection is a huge topic. Just ignore my comments. I need to learn more...

Ted

[mtymousie]

Sept 24, 2008 9:43:35 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

Sept 23, 2008 22:56:10 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

I don't think the OT saints were raised until just about the time that Jerusalem was sacked. But NT saints were rising as they died. That is the difference between their hope and ours - we do not spend anytime apart from the Lord.

But even if nobody was raised until the 2nd coming, it still doesn't put us as having to wait at all now that the kingdom is come!

Doesn't Hebrews 9:8 talk about the way into heaven not being open yet while the earthly temple stood?

And if this is true then NT saints would go to sheol just as the OT saints did. But that gives rise (no pun intended) to another question.

I don't think anyone entered the true heavenly realm until the 2nd coming.

Aaaaa, I don't know enough to even give my impressions. The resurrection is a huge topic. Just ignore my comments. I need to learn more...

Ted

None of the rest of us "know enough" either, my friend. But maybe together we can all learn more about this huge topic. I tend to think that Heb.12:18-28 and Rev.6:9-11 certainly support your conclusion above.

JMO,
Dale
preteristmouse

[MoGrace2U]

Sept 24, 2008 9:43:35 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

Doesn't Hebrews 9:8 talk about the way into heaven not being open yet while the earthly temple stood?

And if this is true then NT saints would go to sheol just as the OT saints did. But that gives rise (no pun intended) to another question.

I don't think anyone entered the true heavenly realm until the 2nd coming.

Aaaaa, I don't know enough to even give my impressions. The resurrection is a huge topic. Just ignore my comments. I need to learn more...

Ted

I took another look at Heb 9:8 and the KJV has manifest rather than open. IOW it was not clearly revealed yet while the temple still stood. In which case the destruction of the temple was the sign that revealed it had come to pass!

[MoGrace2U]

Sept 24, 2008 10:29:45 GMT -5 mtymousie said:

None of the rest of us "know enough" either, my friend. But maybe together we can all learn more about this huge topic. I tend to think that Heb.12:18-28 and Rev.6:9-11 certainly support your conclusion above.

Hi Dale,
Thanks for the references. But notice that Rev 6:9-11 is not specifying NT saints in particular. The testimony that they held was certainly the word of God, but does not specifically say the testimony of Jesus was theirs as noted in Rev 12:17. I think these are OT saints under the altar.

[Allyn]

I think that concerning the Resurrection we need to start with the basics and then build upon that. Sometimes we insert our beliefs (nothing wrong there) and they appear to be without foundation. Do we need to start a thread just for the resurrection basics? I'll wait for your comments and then decide.