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Post by Allyn on Sept 15, 2008 7:05:14 GMT -5
In the book of Hebrews the author has been given this to say to his readers:
Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time He waits for his enemies to be made His footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
From the very beginning I have always taken this passage concerning the enemies of Christ as being those who are always at odds with God because of the continual rejection of His Son. And in part I think this is correct. But the other day as I was contemplating the arguement by some that Jesus cannot be on His throne yet because He still has enemies (those who are unsaved and will never be saved) and not until He comes again and establishes His throne forever will this footstool be His.
As a preterist and before that, as an amillennialist, I have said that this was accomplished in Christ already. I still believe this but I don't believe I was associating the footstool to the right people.
I am not yet totally convinced of this but here is my thought process: Who does the Bible say God's enemies are. After doing a word search I find that in some places they are those who are lost and will never come to know Christ. These were those like the religious leaders who wanted to kill Christ and those who agreed with them. Did Christ ever really make them His footstool according to Scripture? I'm not sure - except to say I believe Jesus is King over all. But what we do have are examples of maybe how we are to take the Hebrew passage and I will give some examples and then open this topic to discussion.
Matthew 22:41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 44" 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Romans 5: 9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
If you are following my train of thought I refer now back to verse 14 of the Hebrews text:
14 because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Notice how that is justified by the highlighted text from Romans.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 15, 2008 19:12:26 GMT -5
I am not yet totally convinced of this but here is my thought process: Who does the Bible say God's enemies are. After doing a word search I find that in some places they are those who are lost and will never come to know Christ. These were those like the religious leaders who wanted to kill Christ and those who agreed with them. Did Christ ever really make them His footstool according to Scripture? I'm not sure Hello Allyn, Interesting thread. I've not really given this too much in depth thought, so I guess like you I'm kicking ideas around, without actually being entirely sold on any of them. It seems that amongst the commentaries the phrase "make thine enemies thy footstool" relates to the custom of conquerors putting their feet on the necks of those conquered. As Barnes puts it "The phrase “to make an enemy a footstool,” is borrowed from the custom of ancient warriors who stood on the necks of vanquished kings on the occasion of celebrating a triumph over them as a token of their complete prostration and subjection". So I suppose the question is, what was Christ triumphant over? Is it possible I wonder to locate these "enemies" strictly within the first century? I suppose from a Preterist perspective we must. So is it possible that these "enemies" are, as you say, those who killed the Christ? Also those who continued to follow the Jewish system, and persecuted those who tried to follow the Christian way? The very same group which saw him coming at Rev 1:7, those that "pierced him", and went on to beat themselves in grief at the sight of his "coming in the clouds". In that context, I think it safe to say that Christ triumphed over his "enemies". In a personal sense judgment had arrived upon each and every one of them. In the wider sense, Christ shattered their system of preference; the Jewish system.
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Post by Allyn on Sept 15, 2008 19:47:44 GMT -5
Hi Paul,
Since this is a new thought for me and I was sorta thinking out loud, I probably didn't really make myself clear enough. What I am thinking is really the opposite of what you said. What I am thinking is that maybe these who become His footstool are really you and I - in otherwords those you become saved through the sacrifice of Christ.
If you look at the context of the passage in Hebrews, the writer, I think might be making that point. Let me illustrate it again, if you don't mind.
Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time He waits for his enemies to be made His footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Do you see kinda what I see? How did Christ make His enemies His footstool? Verse 14 tells us, I think:
14 because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Do you see that? By one sacrifice. How would this matter to an enemy unless that enemy switched sides and became a follower of the one he was once at odds with?
Maybe this makes no sense and it isn't the correct way to look at it but this was my thought process.
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 15, 2008 21:25:05 GMT -5
Hello Allyn, It's incredibly late here, so please excuse the brevity. The problem, as I see it, is that this approach makes an artificial distinction between verses 12 and 13. Both verses 12 and 13 are Psalm 110:1 quoted: "A psalm of David. Here is the LORD's oracle to my master: "Sit down at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool!". The only difference is that the writer of Hebrews adds "where he is now waiting", possibly to emphasize the fact that this was an event in progress there and then. But the quote is essentially all one sentence. So I don't see the "for by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy" part as relating specifically to verse 13, but rather to the whole quote, and specifically the first part of it (verse 12, as the subject is the same). The verse numbering of Hebrews breaks up Psalm 110:1 in a way which I think muddies the issue unnecessarily. If read thus: But he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. By removing the verse numbers, does this not then take away the artificial distinction made by the Hebrews numbering system, and more naturally suggest that verse 14 ties in with verses 11 and 12, instead of 13 specifically? Oh, and I take offense at being categorized as an enemy of Christ...lol Paul
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Post by Allyn on Sept 15, 2008 21:33:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I would too if it wasn't for the fact that we all had to come from some form of unbelief to the position we hold now in Him.
But I will continue to look into this and take a closer look at your thoughts. Its getting to be my bedtime so I'll talk to you later, friend.
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 15, 2008 21:42:41 GMT -5
Yeah, night Allyn
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Post by Once4all on Sept 18, 2008 16:35:27 GMT -5
Allyn,
I see where you're coming from with this. And the idea of putting something under foot is "subjection" - making them subject to you, as a king and his subjects. Anyone not in subjection would be considered an enemy.
1 Corinthians 15:23-28 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Even the Son is in subjection (under the feet of) God the Father (verse 28).
Ephesians 1:22-23 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
"put" and "gave" in verse 22 is in the aorist tense, thus rendered in the English past tense. We know Jesus is and has been the head of the church and past tense is appropriate for that part.
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Post by Allyn on Sept 18, 2008 18:01:26 GMT -5
Excellent!! Yes this is the path I was going down.
I have had such a busy week that I haven't been able to pursue this further, so thank you for the research on your part.
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Post by adhitthana on Oct 4, 2008 16:32:18 GMT -5
I find it interesting that the last enemy is death, yet death is not a person. The only enemy that we know the identity of (in Pauls thinking at least) is death. Is it possible Paul saw all the enemies in that way?
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Post by Once4all on Oct 4, 2008 20:14:39 GMT -5
I find it interesting that the last enemy is death, yet death is not a person. The only enemy that we know the identity of (in Pauls thinking at least) is death. Is it possible Paul saw all the enemies in that way? A quick search of those Paul considers enemies, and why: Act 13:8 But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. Act 13:9 But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, Act 13:10 and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? Php 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. Php 3:18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, Php 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. (The topic in this passage is walking in righteousness.)OK, this one is James, not Paul: Jas 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; (The context here is Israel being cut off because of their transgressions.)The consequence of sin/unrighteousness is death (Romans 6:23). When sin and unrighteousness is obliterated, death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). So, it seems that anything that CAUSES unrighteousness, or that IS unrighteous, is an enemy.
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Post by john14and9 on Oct 4, 2008 22:14:02 GMT -5
In the book of Hebrews the author has been given this to say to his readers: Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time He waits for his enemies to be made His footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. From the very beginning I have always taken this passage concerning the enemies of Christ as being those who are always at odds with God because of the continual rejection of His Son. And in part I think this is correct. But the other day as I was contemplating the arguement by some that Jesus cannot be on His throne yet because He still has enemies (those who are unsaved and will never be saved) and not until He comes again and establishes His throne forever will this footstool be His. As a preterist and before that, as an amillennialist, I have said that this was accomplished in Christ already. I still believe this but I don't believe I was associating the footstool to the right people. I am not yet totally convinced of this but here is my thought process: Who does the Bible say God's enemies are. After doing a word search I find that in some places they are those who are lost and will never come to know Christ. These were those like the religious leaders who wanted to kill Christ and those who agreed with them. Did Christ ever really make them His footstool according to Scripture? I'm not sure - except to say I believe Jesus is King over all. But what we do have are examples of maybe how we are to take the Hebrew passage and I will give some examples and then open this topic to discussion. Matthew 22:41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 44" 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. Romans 5: 9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. If you are following my train of thought I refer now back to verse 14 of the Hebrews text: 14 because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Notice how that is justified by the highlighted text from Romans. Any thoughts? How about 1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. we know Jesus has the keys to death and the grave!
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 6, 2008 19:43:19 GMT -5
A king goes forth to conquer until such time as the battle is won, he then returns to his throne to rest and reign over his kingdom - having subdued all the rebels, he then brings them before him to judgment.
This would be the context David has in mind in Psalm 110. But Jesus applies it to Himself when questioning the Pharisees about the sonship of Messiah to point to God as His Father.
(Mat 22:41-46) While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, {42} Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. {43} He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, {44} The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? {45} If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? {46} And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Then in Hebrews this is expanded to His priesthood and the atonement for sin. Not only is the earth the footstool of God, but Jerusalem was His city and the temple in particular was the place where His feet rested. It was David's desire to build a house for the ark to come to rest - the footstool of God. (1 Chron 28:2).
Jesus having made the sacrifice for sin accepted by the Father, sits down to reign on His Father's throne as He waits for the Father to bring the subdued rebels to be judged by the Son. The time of waiting is the days of the apostles' ministry which when they were thru, the Lord Jesus would stand once again in the temple to put down Jerusalem's rebels so His feet can rest upon His Church . In Dan 7:13 we see His return from that victory having gained the dominion over the kingdom forever and the judgment that ensues, as Jesus returns to the throne.
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Oct 6, 2008 20:06:44 GMT -5
I also find it interesting that David bought of all things a threshing floor as a place to put the temple.
And then what John the baptist says in Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
I love it when a connection comes together.
Pmike
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