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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 13, 2008 7:07:49 GMT -5
Afternoon All,
I was listening to Sam Frost's "The World Is Getting Better" talk over at the thereignofchrist.com website (link kindly provided by mellontes). Pretty interesting I though, and to some degree a discussion of Isaiah 65:17-25. But I don't think he went over these verses in much detail. So I thought it might be worth posting them here, and picking over them a little to see what conclusions we can come to.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and there shall be heard in her no more the voice of weeping and the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah.
How would you understand the above?
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Post by Sower on Sept 13, 2008 22:18:54 GMT -5
Good evening, PaulK! Great!  I understand the above as describing the spiritual kingdom of God that's inhabited by new covenant saints living among sinners on the earth (Revelation 21,22). Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 14, 2008 4:51:55 GMT -5
Hi Lady Sower,
Good to speak with you again and thanks for your response. But what about specifics? That it describes the spiritual kingdom I think we agree on. But how would you explain say:
Isa 65:20 - There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
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Post by Allyn on Sept 14, 2008 17:23:30 GMT -5
Hi PaulKelly,
Great challenging thread. I hope I will be able to chime in this week sometime. Not sure how much new I can offer - probably nothing new since all of you guys are on top of things, but I will try.
Incidentally, I have something I have a question about something that I may introduce on a new thread, but lets work on yours first.
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Sept 14, 2008 17:34:26 GMT -5
Hi Lady Sower, Good to speak with you again and thanks for your response. But what about specifics? That it describes the spiritual kingdom I think we agree on. But how would you explain say: Isa 65:20 - There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
First and foremost, I believe that we need to remember that this was Hebrew Poetry. And that details by no means overrides or negates the totality of the message being conveyed. Another example of this is Isaiah 11. Fulfilled in the first century's proclamation of the gospel to the gentiles beginning in Acts 10 with Peter's vision of the clean and unclean animals as representative of the Jews and Gentiles. But Isaiah 11 doesn't only speaks of clean and unclean animals lying down together. It also speaks of small children playing with snakes. Now were there small children playing with cobra's and viper's as the gospel went forth? Maybe. Is there any historical documentation of it? Not that I know of. Does that mean it didn't happen? No. It just means that there is no historical documentation of it. Unless one considers the events of Luke 10:17 the fulfillment. Vss. 17-19Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.Which is completely reasonable considering Isaiah 11:8-9 say the same thing...almost verbatim. I guess what I am saying is that when we are reading sections of scripture that are acknowledged and set off as poetry, we need to realize that even through the inspiration of the Spirit, that a certain amount of license is used in painting a poetic picture. Pmike |
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Post by Allyn on Sept 14, 2008 17:42:58 GMT -5
PaulKelly,
Have you read my article on the Wolf and the Lamb at preteristvoice.org? Maybe it will help, but then you may not agree with it ;D
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 14, 2008 18:36:05 GMT -5
Hi Pmike,
Excellent input. Thanks a lot for taking the time to lay it out for me. I'm not near a bible at the moment, but when I get home later I'll re-examine Isaiah 11 in light of what you have to say. "Off the bat", what you suggest sounds quite reasonable.
Paul
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 14, 2008 18:45:06 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
I hadn't read it, but I have now. Some interesting stuff in there. I'll need to give it a couple of reads to digest everything that's in there. And any time you're ready with the other stuff (if it hasn't already been covered in your article) is fine by me. I have a shockingly hectic week on this week, so am a bit pushed for time myself.
Thanks a lot for your thoughts.
Paul
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Sept 14, 2008 19:46:39 GMT -5
Hi Pmike, Excellent input. Thanks a lot for taking the time to lay it out for me. I'm not near a bible at the moment, but when I get home later I'll re-examine Isaiah 11 in light of what you have to say. "Off the bat", what you suggest sounds quite reasonable. Paul Glad to be of assistance. |
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Post by Once4all on Sept 18, 2008 13:17:58 GMT -5
Psychohmike wrote: Vss. 17-19Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.Clarke's commentary on that verse is interesting: - "To tread on serpents, etc. - It is possible that by serpents and scorpions our Lord means the scribes and Pharisees, whom he calls serpents and a brood of vipers, Mat_23:33, (see the note there), because, through the subtilty and venom of the old serpent, the devil, they opposed him and his doctrine; and, by trampling on these, it is likely that he means, they should get a complete victory over such: as it was an ancient custom to trample on the kings and generals who had been taken in battle, to signify the complete conquest which had been gained over them. See Jos_10:24. See also Rom_16:20. See the notes on Mar_16:17, Mar_16:18."
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Post by Once4all on Sept 18, 2008 13:54:15 GMT -5
Hi Paul!
One of the Isaiah verses you quoted, for example, this one (or two):
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
May simply be a reversal of curses previously put on the wicked:
Deuteronomy 28:30 - "You shall betroth a wife, but another man will violate her; you shall build a house, but you will not live in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but you will not use its fruit.
The above is one among the curses introduced by:
Deuteronomy 28:15 - "But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
Credit to Clarke's Commentary for alerting me to the curse reversal viewpoint.
The blessings that precede it in Deut 28 are reminiscent, at least in format, to the beatitudes in Matthew 5, which are descriptions or attributes of those who please God.
Not sure I'm trying to make a point, just correlations.
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 18, 2008 19:05:47 GMT -5
Hi Once4all, Interesting point about the beatitudes. I'll give this some more thought over the weekend. Thanks for the info bud. Hope you're doing okay Paul |
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Post by Sower on Sept 20, 2008 12:22:08 GMT -5
Hello PaulK, I apologize for not getting back to you about the specifics, and the truth is I can only offer my opinions without being dogmatic. I read Pychomike response and agree with it! Blessings, Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Sower on Sept 20, 2008 12:29:16 GMT -5
Good to speak with you again and thanks for your response. But what about specifics? That it describes the spiritual kingdom I think we agree on. But how would you explain say: Isa 65:20 - There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
First and foremost, I believe that we need to remember that this was Hebrew Poetry. And that details by no means overrides or negates the totality of the message being conveyed. Another example of this is Isaiah 11. Fulfilled in the first century's proclamation of the gospel to the gentiles beginning in Acts 10 with Peter's vision of the clean and unclean animals as representative of the Jews and Gentiles. But Isaiah 11 doesn't only speaks of clean and unclean animals lying down together. It also speaks of small children playing with snakes. Now were there small children playing with cobra's and viper's as the gospel went forth? Maybe. Is there any historical documentation of it? Not that I know of. Does that mean it didn't happen? No. It just means that there is no historical documentation of it. Unless one considers the events of Luke 10:17 the fulfillment. Vss. 17-19Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.Which is completely reasonable considering Isaiah 11:8-9 say the same thing...almost verbatim. I guess what I am saying is that when we are reading sections of scripture that are acknowledged and set off as poetry, we need to realize that even through the inspiration of the Spirit, that a certain amount of license is used in painting a poetic picture. Pmike Hi PMike, Great! Blessings, Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Sept 20, 2008 17:12:20 GMT -5
Hi Lady Sower, No need to apologize. We got there in the end, more or less. But thanks anyway |
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Post by john14and9 on Oct 4, 2008 22:22:50 GMT -5
Afternoon All, I was listening to Sam Frost's "The World Is Getting Better" talk over at the thereignofchrist.com website (link kindly provided by mellontes). Pretty interesting I though, and to some degree a discussion of Isaiah 65:17-25. But I don't think he went over these verses in much detail. So I thought it might be worth posting them here, and picking over them a little to see what conclusions we can come to. Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and there shall be heard in her no more the voice of weeping and the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah.
How would you understand the above? Yes I agree this is describing the spiritual Kingdom which we currently reside in today..no..this is NOT Heaven..lol..get so tired of people accusing me [nobody here does this]but I have people Icknow who do.. I believe this is also highly metaphoric language being used describing something.I do not think we should take every detail and line literally.I guess a thought I have and sometimes do wrestle with..is when do you take scripture literal and spiritual..There are literal verses..and of course there are the verses that teach spiritual meaning such as.. Take up your cross...do you lug around a wooden cross? We are saved by the Blood..did Jesus literally apply his blood on you? Jesus told his disciples..they must eat His flesh and drink his blood! Jesus told his disciples..beware of the Leaven of the Phraisee Then we have the literal ones...God so loved the world etc Christ came to save sinners... Jesus wept.. I think context may be they key.. |
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Post by mellontes on Oct 5, 2008 8:21:35 GMT -5
Just regarding the "wolf and the lamb"...
Paul in Romans 15:12 quotes Isaiah 11:10. The previous verses in Isaiah speak of the wolf and the lamb dwelling together, Gentile-Jew, unclean-clean...(Acts 10:11-16 <-> Acts 10:28)
Romans 15:12 is all about the grafting in of the Gentiles that was PRESENTLY going on in the first century.
Compare Acts 15:15-17 with Amos 9:11-12. These are the same theme. The "this" from Acts 15:15 refers to the salvation of the Gentiles as reprted by those at the council of Jerusalem.
Blessings, Ted
It is absolutely amazing that so-called scholars with all the pretty letters after their names with their abundant published works can not see this!
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Post by Allyn on Oct 5, 2008 8:26:25 GMT -5
exactamento!!
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