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Post by mellontes on Dec 22, 2009 15:28:42 GMT -5
I hope many respond with their links, Scriptures, and reasons why they believe it refers to their particular advent. I also hope to give this link to a friend of mine in regards to some of our personal discussion on this passage. He is a dispensationalist.
I really want to focus in on Zechariah 12 (12:10) and chapter 13 (13:7) because of John 19:37 and Matthew 26:31 respectively...
I cannot get my dispensational friend to understand that the beloved disciple in John 19:37 sources Zechariah 12:10 as a fulfillment regarding Calvary.
Many thanks in advance!
P.S. - If you could state at the beginning of your response as to whether it refers to the 1st or 2nd advent, it would help me to understand the focus of your article right up front.
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Post by Once4all on Dec 22, 2009 22:39:48 GMT -5
I'm confused as to why your friend doesn't understand, since the NT scriptures that you referenced state quite clearly that it is a fulfillment.
Bev
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Post by mellontes on Dec 23, 2009 0:34:20 GMT -5
I'm confused as to why your friend doesn't understand, since the NT scriptures that you referenced state quite clearly that it is a fulfillment. Bev
Here are some of the interactions from Zechariah 12 that my dispensational friend has said:"Is the event in the following sentence in the future or the past?:
Tomorrow, John will hang up the painting that he bought yesterday.
I would say that the event is future even though there is a past event referred to. The past event modifies the object, telling which one.
Likewise in Zechariah 12, the time setting is future (In that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem). Then verse 10 says ...and they shall look (future) upon me whom they have pierced (past), and they shall mourn future)... The rest of the chapter tells who will mourn and where. So the phrase whom they have pierced" modifies "me", telling who is meant, otherwise one might think Zechariah was speaking about himself. In the future, the nation of Israel will look upon Jesus, mourn and be in bitterness. Calvary is also mentioned as something that has past at that point, but the time setting is in our future. I know that you need to ignore the part about Israel mourning over Jesus as one mourns for his only son, but the contradiction is not on our side."
"In that day (future) Israel will mourn over what happened in their past at Calvary to Jesus (whom they have pierced). I believe exactly what Zechariah said. You are the one who believes that since Israel as a nation has never mourned over Jesus as an only son and since God has never sought to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem, these passages must refer to something totally different. You haven't said what they mean instead. Perhaps full preterism has filtered out these passages."
"In Young’s Literal Translation, John 19:37 reads “and again another Writing saith, `They shall look to him whom they did pierce.'
John does not say this or any other part of Zech 12 was fulfilled.
You seem to think that if a New Testament author quotes a sentence from the the Old Testament, then that whole chapter in the OT is automatically fulfilled. [Note by Mellontes - I am not sure why he said this! I certainly do not believe it. But it is true that when Christ or another teacher quoted one verse from the OT the entire context would have been taken in consideration.]What I am attempting to do is to determine whether ALL of Zech 12 and 13 refers to Christ's earthly ministry. I have two direct quotes from the NT that refer certain portions of those two chapters to Calvary. I need other exegesis that relates the other portions to CHrist's earthly ministry in some manner. As far as I know, there are no other direct quotes referencing Zech 12 or 13...
Blessings, Ted |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 29, 2009 15:25:36 GMT -5
Hi Ted.
I've been following some of the responses given to your question over at preterismdebate.ning.com.
You said,
But the dispensationalists use Zechariah 12:10 as the historical, biblical source/prophecy which is applied to the 2nd advent. The source (Zechariah 12:10) is being applied to TWO DIFFERENT events - one by the dispies and one by the beloved disciple. I am sticking with the beloved disiciple's interpretation. This is what I am really trying to hammer out with my friend. Are you understanding where I am coming from?
Then you asked, So, is there no one here who sees Zechariah 12 as the first advent???
I agree with you that the beloved disciple says that verse applies to the crucifixion.
Why does all of Zechariah 12 have to apply to only the first Advent? Why can't it also have fulfillment in the 2nd Advent? Not verse 10, but other parts of the chapter. Or am I not understanding.
Steve
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Post by mellontes on Dec 29, 2009 15:41:35 GMT -5
Hi Ted. I've been following some of the responses given to your question over at preterismdebate.ning.com. You said, But the dispensationalists use Zechariah 12:10 as the historical, biblical source/prophecy which is applied to the 2nd advent. The source (Zechariah 12:10) is being applied to TWO DIFFERENT events - one by the dispies and one by the beloved disciple. I am sticking with the beloved disiciple's interpretation. This is what I am really trying to hammer out with my friend. Are you understanding where I am coming from?Then you asked, So, is there no one here who sees Zechariah 12 as the first advent???I agree with you that the beloved disciple says that verse applies to the crucifixion. Why does all of Zechariah 12 have to apply to only the first Advent? Why can't it also have fulfillment in the 2nd Advent? Not verse 10, but other parts of the chapter. Or am I not understanding. Steve I think initially that all of Zech 12 could have been directed to the 1st advent...I think that was too harsh of a statement. What I was seeing was "allusions" to the first advent in much of the language. My dispensational friend was saying that Zech 12 referred ONLY to the 2nd advent. I want to determine as much of Zech 12 that is clearly indicating the first advent so that my friend can realize for himself that his overly 2nd advent assessment was not entirely true, and hence maybe question his indoctrination to some extent... What I have come to understand in recent days/months is that when the OT prophets spoke of the future day of the Lord it very well may have (and did in many cases) include BOTH advents as one period of time - hence the intermingling of 1st and 2nd advent terminology in Zechariah 12-14. Such language from the OT prophets referred to the one last generation of last days... |
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