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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 10, 2009 22:28:01 GMT -5
Good evening.
Tonight on Preterist Radio, Mike made the comment that being "born again" was an Old Covenant teaching for the Jews. (Mike, maybe you can clarify that better than I just did, I was typing and trying to listen at the time you said it) That we today do not need to be born again. First time I have heard about this.
Don't we need to be born again too?
Thanks.
Steve
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Post by Once4all on Dec 10, 2009 22:30:56 GMT -5
I'd like to hear Mike's take on it, too. I thought it was the pantelists and universalists that dispensed with the need to be born again. I didn't think Mike was either of those.
Bev
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Post by mellontes on Dec 10, 2009 22:39:54 GMT -5
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Dec 11, 2009 0:35:40 GMT -5
I think I presented it as more of a question. And so I think the question should be. Born again from what?
Example...I was born it what some would refer to as a covenant community. I was born and raised in the church. My earliest memories involve church and participating in the trappings of it. For a number of years I wasn't as tightly knit to the flock. I've never known anything outside of having a relationship with God. I couldn't even imagine it. Have I had times in my life where I've felt less connected with God spiritually? Yes. And times where his Grace and Love was so irresistable that I often wonder why I don't always want to be in that place.
So here I am. A 37 year old preterist that has always had a relationship with God through His Son Jesus. Do I need to go be prodigal or something so that I can be born again? Do I need to be baptized in the Spirit and start speaking in tongues?
Consider John 3:3, John 3:7. Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. Someone that was part of that old covenant system. We also see in other passages things about new wine not going in old wine skins. And in Hebrews 6 about not going back to that old system of things. And we see Peter rebuked by Paul for his hypocrisy for apparently mixing the two systems. and 1 Peter 1:23. Being born again in the Spirit vs. not of corruptible seed but incorruptible. The old covenant earthly system was corruptible. The new covenant heavenly system is incorruptible.
All I'm asking is...Is it possible that this being "born again" was something intrinsically tied to those coming out of that old covenant system? E.G. I've never been a part of that old covenant system...Therefore why would one today that is part of the New Heavens and Earth need to be born again?
We preterist's know how to keep things within their first century context.
Just a thought. I'd like to hear your guys thoughts.
Mike
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 11, 2009 7:04:30 GMT -5
Good morning.
Mike said, "All I'm asking is...Is it possible that this being "born again" was something intrinsically tied to those coming out of that old covenant system? E.G. I've never been a part of that old covenant system...Therefore why would one today that is part of the New Heavens and Earth need to be born again?"
I have never thought about that at all. Good points Michael. All of them.
The article by Don Preston that Ted provides a link to above is a must read for everyone too. I'm going to print this out and bring it home to read a few times again.
"Jesus' earthly ministry prohibited him from fulfilling the prophecies of the priestly function of the Messiah because his fleshly birth placed him outside the sanction of that Old Covenant in regard to priesthood! Does this not have profound implications for the millennial view that insists Jesus came to be a king, (thus a priest), on earth? Israel's law forbad the Messiah being a priest because the Messiah was of the tribe of Judah" (Isaiah. 11:1).
"Just as Christ's physical birth placed him in the Old Covenant World where he could not serve as Priest and King his second birth placed him in a New Covenant World where he could, (and does!), serve as High Priest!" (Don Preston)
Holy buckets. This is really fascinating stuff. It really makes sense.
Hey, try telling that one to your pastor today, or anyone in the church. This one is guaranteed to get you thrown out, and fast.
Thank you very much.
Steve
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Post by Once4all on Dec 11, 2009 14:07:49 GMT -5
I read through Don Preston's article right before going to bed last night. Ack! It took me forever to get to sleep, thinking about it. Then I woke up early and thought about it some more!
One of the things that kept popping into my head while thinking about it was this scripture:
(Galatians 3:28 NASB) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
I kept thinking, "neither Jew nor Greek" ... "neither male nor female." The new creation is entirely different from our present existence. It is thoroughly spiritual, not physical.
And, as I recall Preston's article stating, Jesus was born again when he was resurrected. I don't believe that refers to his body, which I believe was for a sign, but his spirit.
That was part of what was swirling through my head. It wasn't until I got online this morning and looked up Galatians 3:28 that I saw it in its immediate context:
Galatians 3:27-29 NASB
(27) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
It seems there is still a need for our spirits to be born again via baptism into Christ. Why would that need have gone away?
It is our spirit that is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female. The new covenant is not for our physical body, but for our spirit. The physical body is still what it always was, but when our spirit is born again we are to put to death the deeds of the physical body, as Paul wrote, and live according to our new life in the spirit. The body is now a temporary encumbrance until it dies. But what we do in the body affects the condition of our spirit because they are, for the time being, connected.
OK, I still haven't connected any of this to the meat of Preston's article, but it's the kinds of thoughts the article caused and which kept my mind racing instead of sleeping.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Dec 11, 2009 14:24:50 GMT -5
I read through Don Preston's article right before going to bed last night. Ack! It took me forever to get to sleep, thinking about it. Then I woke up early and thought about it some more! One of the things that kept popping into my head while thinking about it was this scripture: (Galatians 3:28 NASB) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. I kept thinking, "neither Jew nor Greek" ... "neither male nor female." The new creation is entirely different from our present existence. It is thoroughly spiritual, not physical. And, as I recall Preston's article stating, Jesus was born again when he was resurrected. I don't believe that refers to his body, which I believe was for a sign, but his spirit. That was part of what was swirling through my head. It wasn't until I got online this morning and looked up Galatians 3:28 that I saw it in its immediate context: Galatians 3:27-29 NASB (27) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. It seems there is still a need for our spirits to be born again via baptism into Christ. Why would that need have gone away? It is our spirit that is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female. The new covenant is not for our physical body, but for our spirit. The physical body is still what it always was, but when our spirit is born again we are to put to death the deeds of the physical body, as Paul wrote, and live according to our new life in the spirit. The body is now a temporary encumbrance until it dies. But what we do in the body affects the condition of our spirit because they are, for the time being, connected. OK, I still haven't connected any of this to the meat of Preston's article, but it's the kinds of thoughts the article caused and which kept my mind racing instead of sleeping. Bev Bev, I agree especially with your view on the reason for our baptism into Christ. This is exactly what Romans 8 is about - our act of baptism is the likeness of His death, burial and resurrection. |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 11, 2009 16:30:29 GMT -5
If I may offer a few thoughts...
the "neither male or female" from Galatians applies to the new covenant. Perhaps the "male and female created He them" in Genesis is indicative of the old covenant then???
Water baptism is given an emphasis not required. We are baptized into Christ at the moment of salvation. The water does nothing; it is not even symbolic...more OT ritual washings...
In regards to Christ's resurrection, this is why I keep harping on Acts 2:25-31 in regards to where Jesus was raised. Was it from the realm of the dead (hades/sheol) or was it from Joseph of Arimathea's tomb? And what was raised, soul or body?
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Dec 11, 2009 16:40:42 GMT -5
But what about the being born again thing?
We see during that 40 year period that there were very many of the physical ordinances from the old covenant system that were still in practice, even though not necessary. One of them being water baptism. And even physical circumcision in the case of Timothy. Acts 16:1-3. Yet today we don't circumcise for the reasons prescribed under the old covenant and even in the transition period.
And so I entertained the idea of the being "born again" as being something related to being born again out of that old covenant system which we have never been under.
I just want to figure out if the idea of us today being "born again" is Biblical from a new covenant perspective. Jesus' audience was dead in their trespasses and sins because of their broken relationship to God made manifest by that old covenant system.
Jesus said, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
I've always believed and have never known a time that I haven't. So I'm just trying to figure this out. Do I need to go be a prodigal for a set amount of time and then say a sinners prayer or something like that so that I can be "born again?"
I am speaking "tongue in cheek." However I'm also being a little bit serious. I guess I just want people to think about why they believe what they do.
I guess I'm just a little disheartened by someone that kind of called into question my faith because I've never been proverbially "born again."
I really hope this makes sense and doesn't get taken out of context.
Blessings, Mike
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Post by Allyn on Dec 11, 2009 17:24:04 GMT -5
Being Born again is comprised of two elements for it to be so; one is the water (which in my belief is the word of God Eph. 5:26) and by the Spirit of God. These are the two products resulting in life eternal.
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Post by mellontes on Dec 11, 2009 20:39:11 GMT -5
I have also heard that repentance was for the Jew only. The gentleman that mentioned that has faced a lot of flak for saying that. Maybe that is why any form of "repent" is missing from the fourth Gospel.
I think it has to do with the fact that the Jews were once God's people, but they turned away and worshipped idols and such like things. They broke covenant with God. Repentance meant to turn away and back. Perhaps the born again idea is much along the same lines.
1 Peter is addressed to the Diaspora (Jews)
And the 2 references in John are addressed to a Pharisee.
Just a cursory glance at what Strong says about the word "again" is revealing. I think it goes hand in hand with old bottles versus new bottles as Mike said. Paul never deals with the term even once, and he was sent to the Gentiles...
It sure is tough to wade through this stuff when all your life you have been taught without the Jewish understanding and the exchange of covenants...Sorry, Mike. I'm afraid I am of little help here. Let us know what you come up with. I gotta go get my hemihydrated calcium sulfate to start constructing my 1:4,000,000 model of the new Jerusalem...
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Post by Once4all on Dec 11, 2009 22:59:08 GMT -5
If I may offer a few thoughts... the "neither male or female" from Galatians applies to the new covenant. Perhaps the "male and female created He them" in Genesis is indicative of the old covenant then??? That's an interesting thought! Water baptism is given an emphasis not required. We are baptized into Christ at the moment of salvation. The water does nothing; it is not even symbolic...more OT ritual washings... We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I do agree that the water does nothing, but as to the necessity of baptism, I hold to it. In regards to Christ's resurrection, this is why I keep harping on Acts 2:25-31 in regards to where Jesus was raised. Was it from the realm of the dead (hades/sheol) or was it from Joseph of Arimathea's tomb? And what was raised, soul or body? There seems to be two aspects of resurrection mentioned in that passage: not being abandoned to Hades (which could be physical or spiritual) and his flesh not to suffer decay (definitely physical). In Acts 2 it is speaking specifically of Christ, so we can't really apply it to general resurrection. Notice in verse 27 (and in Psalms 16:10), David says that Yahweh will not abandon "my soul" to Sheol, nor allow His "Holy One" to undergo decay. David acknowledges a spiritual resurrection of himself (his soul), but of a bodily resurrection, he says it of only Yahweh's "Holy One" (the Messiah). Bev |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 11, 2009 23:19:25 GMT -5
The sinner's prayer is man-made tradition, water baptism is biblical. Have you been baptized, Mike? It wasn't only Jews who were baptized from Acts onward. Gentiles not under the old covenant were baptized, too.
Bev
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