Post by Allyn on Oct 5, 2009 8:57:58 GMT -5
This is my unedited article. I would appreciate your fine comb approach.
Preterism places its whole system methodology on the fact that the coming of Christ has already happened. We believe that Jesus really did mean to say what He said and that He said what He meant. The non-preterist is the one who has the most trouble with the words of Jesus and the context of His speech.
Jesus, at the end of His ministry made the most profound prophetic statements of His career and he did so at the most crucial time of the whole Jewish history.
When we look at the Olivet Discourse we tend to look only at the time from when Jesus left the Temple and proceeded to the Mount of Olives with a small count of His disciples. But even before that Jesus had sealed the doom of the Jewish system and declared the corrupt leaders and their self-serving positions as desolate. Seldom do people consider as part of the discourse the fact that the first part of His speech started in the temple area beginning with Matthew 23 with Jesus teaching the crowds.
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (NKJV)
Then Jesus passes the judgement of woes unto those evil men as seen in verses 13-36. And finally He declares the the house of Israel (specifically Jerusalem) as desolate - verses 37-39.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” (NKJV)
Only a High Priest is able, with authority, to declare something as desolate (Leviticus 14:33-47). Jesus, being the eternal High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:6) alone is the only High Priest with the authority to declare the City, who kills the prophets and saints and prostituted herself with the kings of the world. In fact the Scripture is repleat with examples of Jerusalem being the “Harlot” “Babylon”:
Rev. 11:8 great city - Jerusalem
Rev 17:18 great city
Rev 18:10, 18 great city
1 Peter 5:13 - Jerusalem
Isa. 1:21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!
Ezek. 16:15 …and played the harlot on them.
Hosea 2:2 Let her put away her harlotries from her sight.
These judgments and the declaration to the people and leaders were then explained fully and personally to four of the disciples who went up with Him to the Mount of Olives. This is the most famous of the discourse but yet is also the most misunderstood.
Jesus had just a few moments earlier revealed to them that the beauty of the temple buildings would be soon reduced to rubble. In fact not one stone would be left standing upon another. Of course this disturbed the disciples greatly. They made a plea to Jesus for Him to tell them when these things would take place and for evidence of the time of His judgment.
The Olivet Discourse is found in the book of Matthew, Mark and Luke. All three share the very same message but yet delivered in slightly different wording yet each account verifies the others. Each were written in the style of the author but only Matthew was written to the Jewish reader while Mark and Luke wrote for the Gentile readership. This fact alone is very important because the Discourse in Matthew represents the Jewish considerations of idioms and Hebrew religious concepts. Matthew, in fact, takes special care through his whole book to carefully word his account for the Jewish reader. One major example would be that whenever Matthew reference the kingdom of God Matthew instead terms it as the kingdom of heaven. This may be because the Jew would never use the name of God in conversation in reference to Him but would substitute in a term that would still show who they were speaking of.
Luke and Mark wrote in terms for the Gentile audience and this makes better for our understanding as well. Matthew spoke of the abomination of desolation to be understood from what Daniel spoke of. Something the learned Jew would know from childhood. But Luke tells his readers that this would be understood by the sign that when armies surrounded the City that the desolation was taking place saying: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."
Preterism relies absolutely on the words of Christ that all these things were to take place within the generation He was speaking to. If there were no other evidence we would still need only the words of Jesus. But we do have other evidence and the most compelling is the historical evidence.
Jesus declared, "Assuredly I say unto you, this generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place". Historically and presently we know that the temple was in fact totally destroyed. Historically we know that there was a slight refrain in the mission of the Roman armies because of the death of Nero which allowed the 1st century christian to flee from the City. They rightly observed the sign Which Jesus, through Luke,Mark and Matthew, had said would be the indicator that the abomination which causes was about to take place.
As this thread develops with other poster comments and the frantic denials of the non- preterist concerning the facts, more illustrations of a 1st century fulfillment will be reviewed. This thread will bring the new reader the elements of preterism as demonstrated through Scripture.
Jesus alluded to the fact that Daniel had the destruction of Jerusalem revealed to him. Specifically Jesus said; “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)" (Mt 24:15). Jesus wanted us to understand what this abomination would be. I think we can know but for now I will stay with the subject concerning Daniel because it is relevant in more ways then just the destruction. In Chapter 12 of the book of Daniel, Daniel is told that the coming destruction would be that time of trouble that had never been experienced before in magnitude by Israel. The angel told Daniel that his people would be delivered, that is everyone who are found in the Book of Life. This limitation has always been placed upon the true Israel of God. God has always had only a small portion of the whole who God has called His remnant.
The angel told Daniel that not only those who were faithful would be delivered (and they were) but also it would be the time of the resurrection for those who were asleep. The angel put it this way:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel was told that he too would rest but would arise with those who slept in the dust to receive their inheritance at the end of those days. The end of the days was not the end of time as the non-preterist would want you to believe but instead are the end of days for the Jewish system by the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem herself. The 1st century people were told that those times were the last days. The teachers were not teaching events that would take place over 2000 years later but were teaching that the generation of people living in the 1st century were experiencing those days there in there own time.
So from Daniel we know that the abomination of desolation was to happen at the end of days and Jesus reminded His disciples that it was their generation that would see it. He even said they would know it when they saw it by the armies surrounding Jerusalem.
Preterism, however, is not just about the historical destruction of Jerusalem. Yes, we believe that Jesus foretold it but so also do the partial-preterists, the amilinnialists, and even a few other futurists. Where the Full-Preterists differ from the rest is that we fully accept the account and all related accounts as already completed. These would include the first resurrection, the coming of Christ, the general resurrection, the fact that the Gospel Saints shall never die. The only biblical events left to happen are the individual deaths of the human life on earth and then the immediate justice concerning those lives handed out whether they be rewards or suffering loss. (1 Cor. 3)
This preterist believes these biblical events during the end of the Jewish system must be accepted as 1st century events in order to sustain the credibility of the olivet discourse. Not one element can be extended beyond the point of AD 70 without the whole discourse falling flat on its face.
I understand there are different versions of preterism and this is true with any religious ism. The non-preterists are not immune from the factions within their own eschatological understandings. Some say Satan is bound some say he's not. Some say the rapture is before the great tribulation and others say after. Some say all Israel will be saved while others say only the remnant after the slaughter. And on and on. The main thing that Preterism has that is lacking in any of the non-preterist views is that we believe the words of Christ saying He has fulfilled all things concerning Him. On the whole the non- preterist camp is simply unwilling to buy into the fact Jesus did not fail in doing exactly what He claimed, but individually people are seeing and heeding the command to understand. I came to it this way and so did all sincere full-preterists.
The non-preterists, having little else to hit us with, point out with a comical side bar that we are not in unison concerning a couple of concepts applying to all things fulfilled. They raise with glee the notion that we can't be correct since we don't agree on the mode of the so called rapture, the second coming of Christ or even the timing of the general resurrection. They boast their contempt for preterism by saying we are a newcomer and should be handled as heretics of orthodoxy. Of course it should be noted that their orthodoxy had as its beginning a few centuries after the last inspired writer died and developed through uninspired men who cast votes for which way to believe. If I am a heretic based on their creeds and their disapproval of letting the words of Jesus be true - then I gladly lay claim to the term. Let God be true and all men a liar.
Reviewing we see that the Olivet Discourse of Jesus really began in the Temple area with Jesus teaching the people and condemning the shepherds. We find that Jesus then left the temple and His disciples commented on the beauty of the temple buildings. Jesus then states that not one stone of these buildings would be left one upon another.
Proceeding to the Mount of Olives, the four disciples with Jesus asked when those things were to take place and what would be the sign of His coming. We understand that a learned Jew would understand the implication of the destruction of Jerusalem because Daniel was a required reading for them. They would understand that the abomination of desolation had to happen before those who slept could be raised. They wanted to know when and Jesus did not disappoint them. Jesus told them it would all take place in their generation. He said that their generation would see all those things before it passed away.
We know from written history that only a mere 40 years later the destuction of Jerusalem came upon the City at the hands of the Roman armies - the very sign Luke related to us as being the evidence that the desolation was near (Luke 21).
Its now time to approach the teaching of the 1st resurrection depicted in Rev. 20.
Revelation 20:4 stands alone as the indicator of what happens in heaven during the pre -destruction of Jerusalem but yet during the tribulation of the days inflicted upon the first century by both the Jews and the Romans. The Roman empire was the governing entity during the first century Gospel era. Rome allowed the Jewish system to function but Israel was at the beckoning of Rome. Israel in effect was committing fornication with Rome by being subject to a world government rather than to God. The Jews had become uncomfortable subjects of Rome and clearly made this known at the trial of Jesus. They understood the limit of their religious powers under Rome but this did not stop them from the persecution of the church and before that the beheading of John the Baptist at the hands of their not so Jewish king, king Herod. The Jews were held back by Rome at fully resolving their issue with The Way but nonetheless they manged to take the lives of many a Christian for his testimony of Christ.
At first Rome allowed the new Christian faith to go unheeded. The Christian simply had another god of many that Romans believed existed. One more god made little difference to Rome. It wasn't until after Saul became Paul when the new tactics of the Jews came into being. It wasn't until Paul declared himself to be a citizen of Rome that the Jewish leaders took advantage of the situation convincing that this rebellion known as The Way was more of a threat to Caesar then first known, for the Christians not only believed in God, but they also called the Son of God - mere man in the eyes of Rome - as their king. This began the killing of the saints at the hands of Rome.
Returning to Revelation 20 we pick up where the last paragraph left off:
"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."
John, the witness of these heavenly things, was in the spirit that day. I might even add at this time that I believe that the Apostle John was the very man Paul spoke of in whom he said he knew a man who went to the third heaven and saw unspeakable things, but I digress. What John saw and wrote about took place in Heaven. He saw those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ and were immediately raised and reigned with Christ a thousand years ( an indefinite period of time based on the biblical usage of the term throughout Scripture).
Those who enjoyed this heavenly reign with Christ were called those of the 1st resurrection and "6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years".
The first resurrection was very much unlike the general resurrection of the dead. It was not an event when all who died for their testimony were raised at the same time but rather as each were killed and apparently for only those who had been beheaded for their testimony. This 1st resurrection was limited to only these special people and who had the privilege of standing immediately in the presence of Christ Jesus the risen Lord.
I want to move on now to a place in this study that may cause the widest amount of disfavor not only from the non-preterist but within the full-preterist field of thought as well. I won't go as deep into it as I could but instead I will simply provide the evidence for my coming to the conclusion that I am about to reveal.
To start I need to give a little background as to why I did not stay as a partial preterist for very long. The partial preterist is pretty much a glorified amillennialst. I believe they, for the most part hold to the same with the exception that the amil says there is no literal 1000 year reign but rather the whole church age is the 1000 years. The partial preterist may or may not hold to that view but they are definitely in agreement that the second coming of Christ has not occurred. Some amils also say that the Book of Revelation is mostly depicting a future time.
I found the view of the partial preterist to fall short of the biblical teaching. Partial preterists somehow find it natural for Jesus to suddenly change within the context of the discourse to a time 2000 years and more away from the events that He had just said must all take place within that 1st century generation. The partial preterist seems to forget the sequence of events that reguire one to happen immediately after the other.
This brings me to my point of contention with the partial preterist. As Jesus moves through His Olivet Discourse and into chapter 25 of Matthew (remember Matthew was written to and for the Jew) we find two main characteristics in the chapter. One, what the kingdom of Heaven is likened unto and two, what the resurrection of the dead will encompass. Daniel was told he would be part of that resurrection. In fact every old covenant person would participate in the resurrection of the dead - some to destruction and the rest to everlasting life. Jesus shows this to be true by presenting the works of those on His left and those on His right (Matthew 25:33-46).
I disagree with my partial preterist friends in this section of Matthew. Starting at verse 31 Jesus is not telling of His second coming but he is speaking of His ascension to the Father. We are not reading one single event but two events and the order in which they happen. Lets take them one at a time. Verse 31:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory."
Preterists believe that Jesus is home. His home is Heaven and His place is next to His Father. It was this way before He entered as a man and it is now as the resurrected Savior of man. Preterists also believe that the Bible is the muscle of preterism and we therefore let Scripture interpret Scripture. If one passage seems unclear, you can be sure it can be cleared up in another passage or verse. This is the same with verse 31 of Matthew 25. But where can this same information be clarified for the reader? In this case we need to listen to the angel revealing the future to Old Covenant Daniel.
Turning to Daniel 7 we will find the clarity for Matthew 25:31. Daniel 7 is comprised of the vision of the four beasts, the vision of the Ancient of Days and Daniel's visions interpreted. We also see several parenthetical verses nestled in between the main verses of context. One of those parenthetical passages is when Jesus is seen, in Daniel's vision as coming to the Ancient of Days - God the Father. It reads like this:
13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel is viewing this from a heavenly viewpoint. It is a vision of the future and an accurate rendition of the actual ascension event of Christ. Seeing this from the heaven perspective also shows more information than what the Disciples saw when Jesus was lifted up from out of their sight (in time I will be bringing this up again to show what I believe it is about).
Looking at the Daniel vision we can see that this is the same event that Jesus was predicting in Matthews verse 31. In Daniel we have the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. In Matthew we have The Son of Man coming in His Glory.
In Daniel we have the angels bringing Him near before God. In Matthew we have all the holy angels accompanying Jesus before the throne of His glory.
In Daniel we have Jesus given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. In Matthew 25:32 we have All the nations will be gathered before Him. We are viewing the same event.
In verses 32 - 46 we see that Jesus does not leave His heavenly realm during the general resurrection of the Old Covenant people but instead we see that the angels have gathered the dead who sleep in the graves and separate them on the left and on the right. They are brought before the Judge, Jesus Christ and they are judged by their faith as demonstrated by their works. This time of judgment is only for those who died prior to the last days and we know this because this is what the Angel told Daniel he would have to wait for. Let look again:
Daniel 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
So then how does every eye see Him? That explanation is coming next.
Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
I wonder sometimes if we understand the revelation of Jesus Christ (literally to the seven churches in Asia) the way He intended it to be understood in the time and circumstances of that day. Many people claim to understand the book and hundreds of books have been written concerning this revelation. But the sad part is that there are just as many interpretations as there are books about it.
My purpose is not to give yet another interpretation of this last book of the Bible but rather to explain this one verse, verse 7 of Revelation chapter 1, concerning my preterist point of view. When I sought to understand this verse I used a method I have been using in all my preterist studies of Scripture - that being - who is the audience. Yes, we know that Jesus was speaking to the seven churches of Asia. Yes, we know that these seven churches had some very unique problems of their own. And yes, we know that soon after all of these churches departed from the faith.
Jesus was speaking to these churches in order to show them the good things he knew they were doing, the troubles they were facing, but also the trouble they were causing for themselves. Jesus, in all His glory, knew that the time was short. Jesus had given His Olivet Discourse just a short 20 years earlier (as I believe) and that in just a short 20 years from then all hell would break loose (see Rev. 20 1-3).
In this warning to the seven churches Jesus was pleading with them, in effect, to be prepared - for the day of the Lord was near. The judgment of God was about to fall drastically upon the whole house of Israel (those who pierced His Son).
I have noted earlier that I believe Jesus is home in heaven, seated at the right hand of His Father. I believe Jesus will never physically step foot on earth again. I believe all references to Jesus' coming in the sense of a return is a return in judgment just as it was in the days of OT Israel. Here are some examples:
Isaiah 19:1
1 The burden against Egypt.
Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud,
And will come into Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence,
And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
None of that is literal language. Hearts don't literally melt, idols don't tremble in fear but that's what is predicted. This is figurative language. Prophets always use figurative language. It is poetic, but what does it mean? What it means is that a judgment from the Lord is coming upon Egypt. As it turned out this judgment was realized through armies who destroyed and conquered Egypt and the instruments used to accomplish this were the Assyrian armies.But how does the prophet symbolically relate this?
"Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt;"
Did God visibly come to Egypt? Did God really ride on a cloud? The language is based upon the fact that earlier Scriptures said that God rides a cloud like a chariotier, a war vehicle. Ps 104:3
Ps. 104:3
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
Who makes the clouds His chariot,
Who walks on the wings of the wind,
See, the Psalmist said that God makes the clouds His chariot. The chariot is a vehicle of war. When God judges a nation and sends armies against a nation its as if God is riding at the head of those armies even if they are pagan because they are doing His bidding. Maybe inadvertantly but His bidding nonetheless. So we find God riding on a swift cloud coming to Egypt, but literally or figuratively? Not literally and yet what is the difference between the language of Is. 19:1 and the language of Jesus in Matthew 24? He says at the end of verse 30:
"and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".
They'll see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. The Son of man is in heaven. The Son of man is glorified and He is ruling, and the sign that He is doing so is the destruction of His enemies who have crucified Him, His vindication. The destruction of Jerusalem is the sign on earth that the Son of man is in fact exalted and vindicated in heaven.
Now, there is a problem. Verse 30 says:
"and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,"
This sounds like this has to be the second coming because everyone on the whole planet from all the tribes of the whole earth will mourn. But in the Greek, the word "earth" (ge) means earth or land, either one. They are equally good translations for the Greek word "ge". What if it was translated, saying the "tribes of the land will mourn"? If that were the meaning then of course this would mean this was something that happened to Israel. Now let me ask you; what sounds more biblical, the expression "tribes of the earth" or "tribes of the land"? The earth is not divided into tribes but into nations. But in Scripture Israel is divided into tribes. Israel is a cluster of tribes, 12 of them. Therefore to say all the tribes of the ______ (earth or land), land is more likely, the tribes of the land of Israel. Therefore I am suggesting that the way Jesus said this is not all the tribes of the earth but all the tribes of the land will mourn. Did that happen in 70AD? Boy, you bet it did. Israel, all Israel was afflicted and has been afflicted ever since.
Up to now I have gone through every event to have happened from the Olivet Discourse onward to the time of the general resurrection. We know that every person who has died from the time of Adam to the time of within 20 years of AD 70 have been raised from the dead and are right now in the presence of God. However I have not dealt with what becomes of the living from here on out.
The non-preterist and even many preterist hold to a view that a general rapture of the church is part of the plan. I want to explore this with you now. Is it correct to believe that either in the past or even yet in the future that a trumpet will sound and all the believers in Christ who are still living will suddenly be lifted to the sky, never having to experience death, and be forever with the Lord? Is this what the Bible teaches? Lets find out.
I am going to start by first listing all the so called rapture verses that I know about. Then I will present what I think they are teaching us at the end.
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive (possess spiritual and eternal life) and remain (be left remaining, to survive) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I hope you noticed that I placed in parentheses the actual meaning for the Greek words ahead of the meaning. These are very revealing in that they show what I think to be harmony with the clearer passages on the subject.
I Corinthians 15: 51 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Matthew 24:30,31 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Mark 13:26,27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
All four of these selected passages have been described by people as being rapture passages. They all four have things in common - but not all things in common. It is difficult to go against the grain because preterist and futurist alike believe that a day has come or will come when all the living will be changed at the same time and caught up into the air. Futurist believe that nothing has happened yet and that includes the rapture of the church. They, I believe, go completely against the Scriptures in their view on eschatology. To me their view is not credible at all. But some preterists do share with the futurist the idea that the whole church was to be raptured (caught up). This has been hard to explain in light of the fact that most of us have been taught that this requires the disappearance of many, many living people from the face of the earth.
Some futurists have even gone so far as to say that this is the achilles heel of preterism. A well known preterist, Ed Stevens, has tried to explain this so called wound to preterism by finding in his own external study that in fact the rapture did happen and thousands did go missing. He basis his whole claim on a presumption that since there has been dead silence from the left behind, who probably missed out on the rapture, concerning the events that true christians understood; that this silence is because those who would have seen the event were not around to tell of it since they had been raptured. The rest were left unaware because of many factors that all played in to reduce communication. Chaos was the norm for that time and people were simply busy running for their lives to notice if one was missing. So Stevens' story goes.
I don't accept that view. I think instead we can know from the text that the rapture is simply an event each believer will experience separately from another believer. In other words when I die I will experience an instant change, dropping the load of my corruptible body and instantly appearing before my Savior. All in the twinkling of an eye. I find this to be the better explanation of the passages and consistent the 1st century teachings.
I will admit that if there is one hard teaching for me to understand, the rapture is one of the hardest. Maybe all the true Christians of the day were caught up in the sky and the world was left with only the Asian churches who had already left the faith but still carried on as if they were one with Christ. Or it is similar to my present position on the subject. Either way no harm is done to the preterist view and the all things fulfilled in Christ teaching coming from the inspired writers. We do know, however, that Jesus was not endorsing the church to be removed from the earth but rather to stay and be protected by the Spirit (John 17:9-19). Could it be that this is how it should be for all believers? Isn't our job to remain and spraed the light of the Gospel even unto death?
Preterism places its whole system methodology on the fact that the coming of Christ has already happened. We believe that Jesus really did mean to say what He said and that He said what He meant. The non-preterist is the one who has the most trouble with the words of Jesus and the context of His speech.
Jesus, at the end of His ministry made the most profound prophetic statements of His career and he did so at the most crucial time of the whole Jewish history.
When we look at the Olivet Discourse we tend to look only at the time from when Jesus left the Temple and proceeded to the Mount of Olives with a small count of His disciples. But even before that Jesus had sealed the doom of the Jewish system and declared the corrupt leaders and their self-serving positions as desolate. Seldom do people consider as part of the discourse the fact that the first part of His speech started in the temple area beginning with Matthew 23 with Jesus teaching the crowds.
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (NKJV)
Then Jesus passes the judgement of woes unto those evil men as seen in verses 13-36. And finally He declares the the house of Israel (specifically Jerusalem) as desolate - verses 37-39.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” (NKJV)
Only a High Priest is able, with authority, to declare something as desolate (Leviticus 14:33-47). Jesus, being the eternal High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:6) alone is the only High Priest with the authority to declare the City, who kills the prophets and saints and prostituted herself with the kings of the world. In fact the Scripture is repleat with examples of Jerusalem being the “Harlot” “Babylon”:
Rev. 11:8 great city - Jerusalem
Rev 17:18 great city
Rev 18:10, 18 great city
1 Peter 5:13 - Jerusalem
Isa. 1:21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!
Ezek. 16:15 …and played the harlot on them.
Hosea 2:2 Let her put away her harlotries from her sight.
These judgments and the declaration to the people and leaders were then explained fully and personally to four of the disciples who went up with Him to the Mount of Olives. This is the most famous of the discourse but yet is also the most misunderstood.
Jesus had just a few moments earlier revealed to them that the beauty of the temple buildings would be soon reduced to rubble. In fact not one stone would be left standing upon another. Of course this disturbed the disciples greatly. They made a plea to Jesus for Him to tell them when these things would take place and for evidence of the time of His judgment.
The Olivet Discourse is found in the book of Matthew, Mark and Luke. All three share the very same message but yet delivered in slightly different wording yet each account verifies the others. Each were written in the style of the author but only Matthew was written to the Jewish reader while Mark and Luke wrote for the Gentile readership. This fact alone is very important because the Discourse in Matthew represents the Jewish considerations of idioms and Hebrew religious concepts. Matthew, in fact, takes special care through his whole book to carefully word his account for the Jewish reader. One major example would be that whenever Matthew reference the kingdom of God Matthew instead terms it as the kingdom of heaven. This may be because the Jew would never use the name of God in conversation in reference to Him but would substitute in a term that would still show who they were speaking of.
Luke and Mark wrote in terms for the Gentile audience and this makes better for our understanding as well. Matthew spoke of the abomination of desolation to be understood from what Daniel spoke of. Something the learned Jew would know from childhood. But Luke tells his readers that this would be understood by the sign that when armies surrounded the City that the desolation was taking place saying: 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."
Preterism relies absolutely on the words of Christ that all these things were to take place within the generation He was speaking to. If there were no other evidence we would still need only the words of Jesus. But we do have other evidence and the most compelling is the historical evidence.
Jesus declared, "Assuredly I say unto you, this generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place". Historically and presently we know that the temple was in fact totally destroyed. Historically we know that there was a slight refrain in the mission of the Roman armies because of the death of Nero which allowed the 1st century christian to flee from the City. They rightly observed the sign Which Jesus, through Luke,Mark and Matthew, had said would be the indicator that the abomination which causes was about to take place.
As this thread develops with other poster comments and the frantic denials of the non- preterist concerning the facts, more illustrations of a 1st century fulfillment will be reviewed. This thread will bring the new reader the elements of preterism as demonstrated through Scripture.
Jesus alluded to the fact that Daniel had the destruction of Jerusalem revealed to him. Specifically Jesus said; “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)" (Mt 24:15). Jesus wanted us to understand what this abomination would be. I think we can know but for now I will stay with the subject concerning Daniel because it is relevant in more ways then just the destruction. In Chapter 12 of the book of Daniel, Daniel is told that the coming destruction would be that time of trouble that had never been experienced before in magnitude by Israel. The angel told Daniel that his people would be delivered, that is everyone who are found in the Book of Life. This limitation has always been placed upon the true Israel of God. God has always had only a small portion of the whole who God has called His remnant.
The angel told Daniel that not only those who were faithful would be delivered (and they were) but also it would be the time of the resurrection for those who were asleep. The angel put it this way:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel was told that he too would rest but would arise with those who slept in the dust to receive their inheritance at the end of those days. The end of the days was not the end of time as the non-preterist would want you to believe but instead are the end of days for the Jewish system by the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem herself. The 1st century people were told that those times were the last days. The teachers were not teaching events that would take place over 2000 years later but were teaching that the generation of people living in the 1st century were experiencing those days there in there own time.
So from Daniel we know that the abomination of desolation was to happen at the end of days and Jesus reminded His disciples that it was their generation that would see it. He even said they would know it when they saw it by the armies surrounding Jerusalem.
Preterism, however, is not just about the historical destruction of Jerusalem. Yes, we believe that Jesus foretold it but so also do the partial-preterists, the amilinnialists, and even a few other futurists. Where the Full-Preterists differ from the rest is that we fully accept the account and all related accounts as already completed. These would include the first resurrection, the coming of Christ, the general resurrection, the fact that the Gospel Saints shall never die. The only biblical events left to happen are the individual deaths of the human life on earth and then the immediate justice concerning those lives handed out whether they be rewards or suffering loss. (1 Cor. 3)
This preterist believes these biblical events during the end of the Jewish system must be accepted as 1st century events in order to sustain the credibility of the olivet discourse. Not one element can be extended beyond the point of AD 70 without the whole discourse falling flat on its face.
I understand there are different versions of preterism and this is true with any religious ism. The non-preterists are not immune from the factions within their own eschatological understandings. Some say Satan is bound some say he's not. Some say the rapture is before the great tribulation and others say after. Some say all Israel will be saved while others say only the remnant after the slaughter. And on and on. The main thing that Preterism has that is lacking in any of the non-preterist views is that we believe the words of Christ saying He has fulfilled all things concerning Him. On the whole the non- preterist camp is simply unwilling to buy into the fact Jesus did not fail in doing exactly what He claimed, but individually people are seeing and heeding the command to understand. I came to it this way and so did all sincere full-preterists.
The non-preterists, having little else to hit us with, point out with a comical side bar that we are not in unison concerning a couple of concepts applying to all things fulfilled. They raise with glee the notion that we can't be correct since we don't agree on the mode of the so called rapture, the second coming of Christ or even the timing of the general resurrection. They boast their contempt for preterism by saying we are a newcomer and should be handled as heretics of orthodoxy. Of course it should be noted that their orthodoxy had as its beginning a few centuries after the last inspired writer died and developed through uninspired men who cast votes for which way to believe. If I am a heretic based on their creeds and their disapproval of letting the words of Jesus be true - then I gladly lay claim to the term. Let God be true and all men a liar.
Reviewing we see that the Olivet Discourse of Jesus really began in the Temple area with Jesus teaching the people and condemning the shepherds. We find that Jesus then left the temple and His disciples commented on the beauty of the temple buildings. Jesus then states that not one stone of these buildings would be left one upon another.
Proceeding to the Mount of Olives, the four disciples with Jesus asked when those things were to take place and what would be the sign of His coming. We understand that a learned Jew would understand the implication of the destruction of Jerusalem because Daniel was a required reading for them. They would understand that the abomination of desolation had to happen before those who slept could be raised. They wanted to know when and Jesus did not disappoint them. Jesus told them it would all take place in their generation. He said that their generation would see all those things before it passed away.
We know from written history that only a mere 40 years later the destuction of Jerusalem came upon the City at the hands of the Roman armies - the very sign Luke related to us as being the evidence that the desolation was near (Luke 21).
Its now time to approach the teaching of the 1st resurrection depicted in Rev. 20.
Revelation 20:4 stands alone as the indicator of what happens in heaven during the pre -destruction of Jerusalem but yet during the tribulation of the days inflicted upon the first century by both the Jews and the Romans. The Roman empire was the governing entity during the first century Gospel era. Rome allowed the Jewish system to function but Israel was at the beckoning of Rome. Israel in effect was committing fornication with Rome by being subject to a world government rather than to God. The Jews had become uncomfortable subjects of Rome and clearly made this known at the trial of Jesus. They understood the limit of their religious powers under Rome but this did not stop them from the persecution of the church and before that the beheading of John the Baptist at the hands of their not so Jewish king, king Herod. The Jews were held back by Rome at fully resolving their issue with The Way but nonetheless they manged to take the lives of many a Christian for his testimony of Christ.
At first Rome allowed the new Christian faith to go unheeded. The Christian simply had another god of many that Romans believed existed. One more god made little difference to Rome. It wasn't until after Saul became Paul when the new tactics of the Jews came into being. It wasn't until Paul declared himself to be a citizen of Rome that the Jewish leaders took advantage of the situation convincing that this rebellion known as The Way was more of a threat to Caesar then first known, for the Christians not only believed in God, but they also called the Son of God - mere man in the eyes of Rome - as their king. This began the killing of the saints at the hands of Rome.
Returning to Revelation 20 we pick up where the last paragraph left off:
"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."
John, the witness of these heavenly things, was in the spirit that day. I might even add at this time that I believe that the Apostle John was the very man Paul spoke of in whom he said he knew a man who went to the third heaven and saw unspeakable things, but I digress. What John saw and wrote about took place in Heaven. He saw those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ and were immediately raised and reigned with Christ a thousand years ( an indefinite period of time based on the biblical usage of the term throughout Scripture).
Those who enjoyed this heavenly reign with Christ were called those of the 1st resurrection and "6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years".
The first resurrection was very much unlike the general resurrection of the dead. It was not an event when all who died for their testimony were raised at the same time but rather as each were killed and apparently for only those who had been beheaded for their testimony. This 1st resurrection was limited to only these special people and who had the privilege of standing immediately in the presence of Christ Jesus the risen Lord.
I want to move on now to a place in this study that may cause the widest amount of disfavor not only from the non-preterist but within the full-preterist field of thought as well. I won't go as deep into it as I could but instead I will simply provide the evidence for my coming to the conclusion that I am about to reveal.
To start I need to give a little background as to why I did not stay as a partial preterist for very long. The partial preterist is pretty much a glorified amillennialst. I believe they, for the most part hold to the same with the exception that the amil says there is no literal 1000 year reign but rather the whole church age is the 1000 years. The partial preterist may or may not hold to that view but they are definitely in agreement that the second coming of Christ has not occurred. Some amils also say that the Book of Revelation is mostly depicting a future time.
I found the view of the partial preterist to fall short of the biblical teaching. Partial preterists somehow find it natural for Jesus to suddenly change within the context of the discourse to a time 2000 years and more away from the events that He had just said must all take place within that 1st century generation. The partial preterist seems to forget the sequence of events that reguire one to happen immediately after the other.
This brings me to my point of contention with the partial preterist. As Jesus moves through His Olivet Discourse and into chapter 25 of Matthew (remember Matthew was written to and for the Jew) we find two main characteristics in the chapter. One, what the kingdom of Heaven is likened unto and two, what the resurrection of the dead will encompass. Daniel was told he would be part of that resurrection. In fact every old covenant person would participate in the resurrection of the dead - some to destruction and the rest to everlasting life. Jesus shows this to be true by presenting the works of those on His left and those on His right (Matthew 25:33-46).
I disagree with my partial preterist friends in this section of Matthew. Starting at verse 31 Jesus is not telling of His second coming but he is speaking of His ascension to the Father. We are not reading one single event but two events and the order in which they happen. Lets take them one at a time. Verse 31:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory."
Preterists believe that Jesus is home. His home is Heaven and His place is next to His Father. It was this way before He entered as a man and it is now as the resurrected Savior of man. Preterists also believe that the Bible is the muscle of preterism and we therefore let Scripture interpret Scripture. If one passage seems unclear, you can be sure it can be cleared up in another passage or verse. This is the same with verse 31 of Matthew 25. But where can this same information be clarified for the reader? In this case we need to listen to the angel revealing the future to Old Covenant Daniel.
Turning to Daniel 7 we will find the clarity for Matthew 25:31. Daniel 7 is comprised of the vision of the four beasts, the vision of the Ancient of Days and Daniel's visions interpreted. We also see several parenthetical verses nestled in between the main verses of context. One of those parenthetical passages is when Jesus is seen, in Daniel's vision as coming to the Ancient of Days - God the Father. It reads like this:
13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel is viewing this from a heavenly viewpoint. It is a vision of the future and an accurate rendition of the actual ascension event of Christ. Seeing this from the heaven perspective also shows more information than what the Disciples saw when Jesus was lifted up from out of their sight (in time I will be bringing this up again to show what I believe it is about).
Looking at the Daniel vision we can see that this is the same event that Jesus was predicting in Matthews verse 31. In Daniel we have the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. In Matthew we have The Son of Man coming in His Glory.
In Daniel we have the angels bringing Him near before God. In Matthew we have all the holy angels accompanying Jesus before the throne of His glory.
In Daniel we have Jesus given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. In Matthew 25:32 we have All the nations will be gathered before Him. We are viewing the same event.
In verses 32 - 46 we see that Jesus does not leave His heavenly realm during the general resurrection of the Old Covenant people but instead we see that the angels have gathered the dead who sleep in the graves and separate them on the left and on the right. They are brought before the Judge, Jesus Christ and they are judged by their faith as demonstrated by their works. This time of judgment is only for those who died prior to the last days and we know this because this is what the Angel told Daniel he would have to wait for. Let look again:
Daniel 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
So then how does every eye see Him? That explanation is coming next.
Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
I wonder sometimes if we understand the revelation of Jesus Christ (literally to the seven churches in Asia) the way He intended it to be understood in the time and circumstances of that day. Many people claim to understand the book and hundreds of books have been written concerning this revelation. But the sad part is that there are just as many interpretations as there are books about it.
My purpose is not to give yet another interpretation of this last book of the Bible but rather to explain this one verse, verse 7 of Revelation chapter 1, concerning my preterist point of view. When I sought to understand this verse I used a method I have been using in all my preterist studies of Scripture - that being - who is the audience. Yes, we know that Jesus was speaking to the seven churches of Asia. Yes, we know that these seven churches had some very unique problems of their own. And yes, we know that soon after all of these churches departed from the faith.
Jesus was speaking to these churches in order to show them the good things he knew they were doing, the troubles they were facing, but also the trouble they were causing for themselves. Jesus, in all His glory, knew that the time was short. Jesus had given His Olivet Discourse just a short 20 years earlier (as I believe) and that in just a short 20 years from then all hell would break loose (see Rev. 20 1-3).
In this warning to the seven churches Jesus was pleading with them, in effect, to be prepared - for the day of the Lord was near. The judgment of God was about to fall drastically upon the whole house of Israel (those who pierced His Son).
I have noted earlier that I believe Jesus is home in heaven, seated at the right hand of His Father. I believe Jesus will never physically step foot on earth again. I believe all references to Jesus' coming in the sense of a return is a return in judgment just as it was in the days of OT Israel. Here are some examples:
Isaiah 19:1
1 The burden against Egypt.
Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud,
And will come into Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence,
And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
None of that is literal language. Hearts don't literally melt, idols don't tremble in fear but that's what is predicted. This is figurative language. Prophets always use figurative language. It is poetic, but what does it mean? What it means is that a judgment from the Lord is coming upon Egypt. As it turned out this judgment was realized through armies who destroyed and conquered Egypt and the instruments used to accomplish this were the Assyrian armies.But how does the prophet symbolically relate this?
"Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt;"
Did God visibly come to Egypt? Did God really ride on a cloud? The language is based upon the fact that earlier Scriptures said that God rides a cloud like a chariotier, a war vehicle. Ps 104:3
Ps. 104:3
3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters,
Who makes the clouds His chariot,
Who walks on the wings of the wind,
See, the Psalmist said that God makes the clouds His chariot. The chariot is a vehicle of war. When God judges a nation and sends armies against a nation its as if God is riding at the head of those armies even if they are pagan because they are doing His bidding. Maybe inadvertantly but His bidding nonetheless. So we find God riding on a swift cloud coming to Egypt, but literally or figuratively? Not literally and yet what is the difference between the language of Is. 19:1 and the language of Jesus in Matthew 24? He says at the end of verse 30:
"and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".
They'll see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. The Son of man is in heaven. The Son of man is glorified and He is ruling, and the sign that He is doing so is the destruction of His enemies who have crucified Him, His vindication. The destruction of Jerusalem is the sign on earth that the Son of man is in fact exalted and vindicated in heaven.
Now, there is a problem. Verse 30 says:
"and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,"
This sounds like this has to be the second coming because everyone on the whole planet from all the tribes of the whole earth will mourn. But in the Greek, the word "earth" (ge) means earth or land, either one. They are equally good translations for the Greek word "ge". What if it was translated, saying the "tribes of the land will mourn"? If that were the meaning then of course this would mean this was something that happened to Israel. Now let me ask you; what sounds more biblical, the expression "tribes of the earth" or "tribes of the land"? The earth is not divided into tribes but into nations. But in Scripture Israel is divided into tribes. Israel is a cluster of tribes, 12 of them. Therefore to say all the tribes of the ______ (earth or land), land is more likely, the tribes of the land of Israel. Therefore I am suggesting that the way Jesus said this is not all the tribes of the earth but all the tribes of the land will mourn. Did that happen in 70AD? Boy, you bet it did. Israel, all Israel was afflicted and has been afflicted ever since.
Up to now I have gone through every event to have happened from the Olivet Discourse onward to the time of the general resurrection. We know that every person who has died from the time of Adam to the time of within 20 years of AD 70 have been raised from the dead and are right now in the presence of God. However I have not dealt with what becomes of the living from here on out.
The non-preterist and even many preterist hold to a view that a general rapture of the church is part of the plan. I want to explore this with you now. Is it correct to believe that either in the past or even yet in the future that a trumpet will sound and all the believers in Christ who are still living will suddenly be lifted to the sky, never having to experience death, and be forever with the Lord? Is this what the Bible teaches? Lets find out.
I am going to start by first listing all the so called rapture verses that I know about. Then I will present what I think they are teaching us at the end.
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive (possess spiritual and eternal life) and remain (be left remaining, to survive) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I hope you noticed that I placed in parentheses the actual meaning for the Greek words ahead of the meaning. These are very revealing in that they show what I think to be harmony with the clearer passages on the subject.
I Corinthians 15: 51 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Matthew 24:30,31 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Mark 13:26,27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
All four of these selected passages have been described by people as being rapture passages. They all four have things in common - but not all things in common. It is difficult to go against the grain because preterist and futurist alike believe that a day has come or will come when all the living will be changed at the same time and caught up into the air. Futurist believe that nothing has happened yet and that includes the rapture of the church. They, I believe, go completely against the Scriptures in their view on eschatology. To me their view is not credible at all. But some preterists do share with the futurist the idea that the whole church was to be raptured (caught up). This has been hard to explain in light of the fact that most of us have been taught that this requires the disappearance of many, many living people from the face of the earth.
Some futurists have even gone so far as to say that this is the achilles heel of preterism. A well known preterist, Ed Stevens, has tried to explain this so called wound to preterism by finding in his own external study that in fact the rapture did happen and thousands did go missing. He basis his whole claim on a presumption that since there has been dead silence from the left behind, who probably missed out on the rapture, concerning the events that true christians understood; that this silence is because those who would have seen the event were not around to tell of it since they had been raptured. The rest were left unaware because of many factors that all played in to reduce communication. Chaos was the norm for that time and people were simply busy running for their lives to notice if one was missing. So Stevens' story goes.
I don't accept that view. I think instead we can know from the text that the rapture is simply an event each believer will experience separately from another believer. In other words when I die I will experience an instant change, dropping the load of my corruptible body and instantly appearing before my Savior. All in the twinkling of an eye. I find this to be the better explanation of the passages and consistent the 1st century teachings.
I will admit that if there is one hard teaching for me to understand, the rapture is one of the hardest. Maybe all the true Christians of the day were caught up in the sky and the world was left with only the Asian churches who had already left the faith but still carried on as if they were one with Christ. Or it is similar to my present position on the subject. Either way no harm is done to the preterist view and the all things fulfilled in Christ teaching coming from the inspired writers. We do know, however, that Jesus was not endorsing the church to be removed from the earth but rather to stay and be protected by the Spirit (John 17:9-19). Could it be that this is how it should be for all believers? Isn't our job to remain and spraed the light of the Gospel even unto death?
