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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 8, 2009 9:15:58 GMT -5
The idea that this world has to be brought to an end has been bugging me. The theory goes that it is this world that must someday be without sin so men can live in peace here forever. The dispies think such a world is possible with both resurrected and natural men dwelling together under Christ's rule - for at least a 1,000 years, before the world is removed of all its wicked inhabitants leaving only glorified men to populate the eternal kingdom here in this realm when it is made heavenly. And they pretty much stick with this idea because the heavenly realm seems like the shadowy place to them and here is where they think true reality must be found.
Which I think is a lot of baloney - and it doesn't matter how you fix it, it will still be baloney you are eating in the end.
I think something else entirely is what the heavenly realm is about. Infinity is not an easy concept to grasp in this finite world, but we have a universe we can see somewhat though its boundaries escape our discovery. And what planets we have viewed seem barren and uninhabitable. But is that true for men who inhabit the heavenly realm? Can we see anything of that realm with our earthly eyes? Why wouldn't they look barren to us? If heavenly beings cannot be seen unless they reveal themselves to us, then the world they inhabit can be expected to have those boundaries for us - though it doesn't for them.
So 2 things have caught my attention here: Jesus is alive bodily somewhere dwelling amongst angels and resurrected men, and the universe itself suggests what inifinity is like in concept, though it does not appear to us exactly as to what it is - anymore than heaven does. Yet the reality we have here has its source as heaven. Earth is a pattern of heavenly things - which means that realm is something like what we know here.
My thoughts are that this earth is where men are born first of water and then of spirit so they can be gathered into the unseen kingdom at death to live there forever. If the universe we are aware of suggests no boundaries, then populating it would be a never ending process. Why would earthy life here ever have to end? We are the ones who multiply here - angels and glorified men do not. Here we see temporal life appears on the only planet that seems able to support it. But is that the case once we have passed over into that other realm we know exists too?
Yet even more thought provoking is how the Lord is able to keep the balance in this world so that it continues, despite men's fears of global warming and nuclear war. Nor do the kingdoms of this world continue, because death takes it toll on all men. Why would the spiritual kingdom we have available here ever end either? If it exists forever in the heavenly realm - where it emanates from, then its spiritual presence in the world can too.
The gospel has not ceased to call men to the living waters for almost 2,000 years now. And though we have seen great evil and corruption from wicked albeit religious men, there have also been revivals and truth continues to triumph and convert the hearts of men to Christ.
Have we not been promised that among the rewards some of the children of God will receive is to rule over cities? What cities might those be? If the nations continue to flow into the New Jerusalem as kings bring the glory of the nations into it, and there is a vast universe out there to be populated, then the plan to redeem men that we see at work now ought not to ever have to cease.
Before you think I have lost it, think about what scripture does say - there are many more hints as to why this world will not end, than there are that it will!
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Post by mellontes on Jul 9, 2009 6:34:53 GMT -5
Is Jesus the only bodily personnage in this heavenly realm of yours? Are the saints that have passed on from the earthly existence in this same bodily form?
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 9, 2009 22:37:45 GMT -5
Of course! I find it odd that people seem to think Jesus is all alone now.
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Post by mellontes on Jul 11, 2009 9:24:09 GMT -5
I guess what I have to work on now is "What is meant by 'bodily' form?" To me, there is no way our present physical body has anything to do with an alleged bodily form in heaven (or the other realm).
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 13, 2009 10:47:02 GMT -5
I guess what I have to work on now is "What is meant by 'bodily' form?" To me, there is no way our present physical body has anything to do with an alleged bodily form in heaven (or the other realm). Interesting that you said this as I have been looking over John 14:2 the past few days. I think a bodily form that has some continuity with what we know now is to be our expectation. Jesus presents the heavenly temple as the antitype. 'My Father's house' was earlier used to refer to the earthly temple (John 2:16). My thoughts are that the earthly temple that was patterned after the heavenly is a picture of our resurrected state in heaven. And there are quite a few analogies that can be drawn from this temple type from the clues we have been given. However the fact that a man made edifice no longer represents the temple of God in the earth - rather that type is now seen in the Holy Spirit indwelling us, pictures to me that the earthly is not what is to be kept at all. For neither can its transformation be expected to replace the original heavenly structure that was never made by hands in the first place. And those chambers in which the priests dwelt in the earthly temple are what Jesus says He has gone to prepare for us in the heavenly temple. Our eternal house in heaven therefore has nothing to do with this earthly mortal tabernacle in which we dwell now that will die and return to the dust from which it came, yet releases our soul to be birthed into our heavenly body. Because it is the presence of the Spirit indwelling our inner man that will carry us thru alive, leaving our old house behind. Which also explains to me why we see that no temple edifice has ever been erected since that last one was destroyed. The new way we have received with the Spirit dwelling in us will never be represented by that type again. But we see Jesus raised up in a body that God had prepared for Him - that saw no corruption because of the defilement of sin or death; which gives us great hope of what we can expect when we go the same way and come into that body He has prepared for us. |
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Post by Allyn on Jul 13, 2009 11:09:44 GMT -5
I guess what I have to work on now is "What is meant by 'bodily' form?" To me, there is no way our present physical body has anything to do with an alleged bodily form in heaven (or the other realm).
Jesus presents the heavenly temple as the antitype. 'My Father's house' was earlier used to refer to the earthly temple (John 2:16). My thoughts are that the earthly temple that was patterned after the heavenly is a picture of our resurrected state in heaven. And there are quite a few analogies that can be drawn from this temple type from the clues we have been given.
However the fact that a man made edifice no longer represents the temple of God in the earth - rather that type is now seen in the Holy Spirit indwelling us, pictures to me that the earthly is not what is to be kept at all. For neither can its transformation be expected to replace the original heavenly structure that was never made by hands in the first place.
And those chambers in which the priests dwelt in the earthly temple are what Jesus says He has gone to prepare for us in the heavenly temple. Our eternal house in heaven therefore has nothing to do with this earthly mortal tabernacle in which we dwell now that will die and return to the dust from which it came, yet releases our soul to be birthed into our heavenly body. Because it is the presence of the Spirit indwelling our inner man that will carry us thru alive, leaving our old house behind.
Which also explains to me why we see that no temple edifice has ever been erected since that last one was destroyed. The new way we have received with the Spirit dwelling in us will never be represented by that type again. But we see Jesus raised up in a body that God had prepared for Him - that saw no corruption because of the defilement of sin or death; which gives us great hope of what we can expect when we go the same way and come into that body He has prepared for us. This is a good study and very thought provoking. |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 13, 2009 15:09:44 GMT -5
This is a good study and very thought provoking. I thought so, too! Thanks, Robin. Bev |
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Post by mellontes on Jul 13, 2009 16:03:29 GMT -5
To me, John 14:2 and following has very little to do with heaven. We (as believers) are the new temple in Christ. We are His lively stones and he is the cornerstone of that temple. This is that rock of Christ! For the Pharisees, it became their stumbling block. It is also the same for most other theologies. The church is the New Jerusalem, the age about to come (now present to us), and the kingdom of God.
Because of a constant badgering that the kingdom of God and the new Jerusalem refers to heaven, we are unable to dismiss this from our mind. The physical rapture (as a wisking away from the planet) is also a carry-over from this type of thinking.
The abode is Christ dwelling in us. A comforter (mentioned several times within the context) would be sent to those believers until the fullness of time - the Parousia event!
God dwells within us. As Christians, we are His temple.
As to what happens when I leave this corruptible body, I have no clue and Scripture gives no indication either. Angels could be visible and invisible. They could also eat food. Beats me what will happen and the "form" (if even an adequate word) we will take...if a material form is to be taken at all...
My summary of the Bible:
"The Bible is a book of redemption from beginning to end. The first testament deals with the old covenant. The second testament deals with the new covenant and its transistion from the old to the new. Basically, the second (new) testament is an exchange of covenants. All the promises of the first testament are fulfilled directly in Christ or indirectly to His church, the body of Christ. All believers (Jew and otherwise) become the Israel of God; these are the TRUE Jews inwardly (Romans 2:29).
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Post by Once4all on Jul 13, 2009 17:59:37 GMT -5
That, too, was a very good post. The temple, the kingdom, it's all spiritual. It exists here and now within believers, and in heaven - the spiritual realm we enter at our death.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 13, 2009 21:43:35 GMT -5
To me, John 14:2 and following has very little to do with heaven. We (as believers) are the new temple in Christ. We are His lively stones and he is the cornerstone of that temple. This is that rock of Christ! For the Pharisees, it became their stumbling block. It is also the same for most other theologies. The church is the New Jerusalem, the age about to come (now present to us), and the kingdom of God. ... I wish we could link to post numbers instead of having to quote all the time in that tiny print. I see what you are saying in the convenantal thing as it pertains to us in the earth. But that is not the whole story is it? I suppose you could see John 14 as meaning some spiritual coming of Christ, but the context concerns His own death in answer to Peter's question and several chapters about where He is going that they cannot come - but will later, in the same way. There are heavenly things to consider after death as well as earthly things that pertain to this life in the flesh. And where Jesus is that He could only return to via death, is with the Father - literally; He is in heaven where He has the same glory there He had with the Father before He was sent into this world. You can't get past this two realms of existence which the covenants only tied together in a spiritual way so we could be connected to God. The NC is the same, except that we have a permanent tie to the Lord that the OT saints did not have, because it is internal rather than external. That is not true that there is no indication! The risen Christ is our example. Yet it is not an exact example for what we will experience other than the result will be the same. Christ did rise in the body that died - but He alone was without sin in the world. That is not the condition we are in here as we are still sons of Adam created in his image whose flesh has been defiled by sin and will face corruption. But Christ shows us that by the power of God indwelling us that we can overcome sin and death as He did. Even though He was without sin Himself, He still suffered because of ours. His perfection was therefore necessary if He was to provide our atonement. What guilt did the bulls and goats have to deal with before they could reconcile men by their blood? The Life is in the blood and death is how that Life was released into the world, else He could not give it to us. Yet it was only Christ's body that needed to die the death for our atonement. No animal died a sin death first - and neither did Christ. But we did and do, and because of that a new type of life had to be given to us. Therefore it is His life we must receive now if we are to survive the death of this body. Which was perhaps the life Adam was given at the first that he lost thru sin. Had Adam not sinned, his body would have probably not died either. But we cannot know this for certain since he did sin. Certainly death was a possibility else God would not have warned against disobeying. Whatever it was that Adam experienced in that day he sinned, we know he lost the connection he had to God which would have sustained him. Yet that was not the plan that we should live forever in this world that only serves as a place to rest His feet. His throne is in heaven, and getting us there is the goal of redemption - and the purpose for making covenants with fallen men alive in this earth. Which gives men hope here for the life that we will have forever there with Him. I don't see any other way to understand what Christ has done for us other than to impart the kind of life to us that can survive the death of this body because the Spirit is resident. Without the Spirit, we would die in our sins and need to be resurrected from the dead as the OT saints. This is not the hope we have in Christ. Our hope is to pass thru without seeing or tasting death. If that is not the case then Christ's promise to come and receive us to Himself was not merely covenantal for this life, it was a lie, because we will die the death of the body. As that is the only way we can enter into the heavenly realm where life reigns eternal. Like it does for those holy angels...who are so amazed that our hope in Christ can be kept by faith even in the face of death. Christ's willingness to face the cross so that we might behold His HEAVENLY glory will never cease to amaze me. As I am sure it will always for you too. Blessings, |
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Post by Allyn on Jul 14, 2009 5:25:53 GMT -5
Hi Robin,
you said:
There must be an easier way, but for now if you go to the bottom of an existing post there is a tab which states "Link to Post". If you right click and click properties you can copy that url in the properties and make it a link back to the post you are referring to.
I will look into the true use of that tab in the meantime.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 14, 2009 9:36:17 GMT -5
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Post by Allyn on Jul 14, 2009 11:04:24 GMT -5
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