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Post by Once4all on May 23, 2009 17:13:55 GMT -5
This is just an excerpt from an email forward I received recently. The article itself is from a dispensationalist perspective, but I thought this portion of it was interesting. Specifically the overlay of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, Revelation 4:1
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Follow along with me here while we overlay 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 on Revelation 4:1
"Behold, I shew you a mystery." (Recall the admonition that concluded the message to the Churches -- he that hath an ear . . .")
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ("and a door was opened in heaven") at the last trump -- for the trumpet SHALL sound ("a voice, as it were a trumpet") and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ("Come up hither") and we shall be changed. ("and immediately I was in the Spirit") (1st Corinthians 15:52, Revelation 4:1)
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1st Thessalonians 4:16-17)
There's that Voice again, (sounding like a trumpet), followed by an instant translation into heaven. So, we have three different descriptions of what sound like exactly the same event: an instant translation, accompanied by a trumpet, from the earth to heaven -- and without going through the usual procedure of dying first.
"Wherefore, comfort one another with these words." (1st Thessalonians 4:18)
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Bev
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 1, 2009 11:23:27 GMT -5
That little word translated 'then' is epeita 1889, and is perhaps better expressed as 'thereafter', since it denotes what can only come after the dead in Christ have been raised. And since it applies to what concerns those saints who are alive and remain, then the resurrection they will experience will occur immediately upon death from that point on.
If a rapture is in view for those saints still alive then it would be more like that John experienced when he was caught up in a heavenly vision - though his feet never left the earth.
And since Paul goes on to speak of the day of the Lord's coming which is like a thief - as He gathers the dead to heaven, then these things are not what will be seen by men. But because of the signs in the earth that they will see, they ought to know that is what those signs are signifying is happening in the spiritual realm.
Somehow men flying up into the clouds just doesn't do justice to the examples we have of what this 'catching up' is all about. Unless of course you only stick to a strict literal understanding and fail to consider what is going on in the realm which we cannot see. In which case I have to wonder why the Lord bothers to tell us these things at all using metaphorical language. What division of soul and spirit is needed by the word of God if everything is to be only carnally understood in such an hyper-literal way?
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Post by Allyn on Jul 1, 2009 11:35:37 GMT -5
That little word translated 'then' is epeita 1889, and is perhaps better expressed as 'thereafter', since it denotes what can only come after the dead in Christ have been raised. And since it applies to what concerns those saints who are alive and remain, then the resurrection they will experience will occur immediately upon death from that point on. If a rapture is in view for those saints still alive then it would be more like that John experienced when he was caught up in a heavenly vision - though his feet never left the earth. And since Paul goes on to speak of the day of the Lord's coming which is like a thief - as He gathers the dead to heaven, then these things are not what will be seen by men. But because of the signs in the earth that they will see, they ought to know that is what those signs are signifying is happening in the spiritual realm. Somehow men flying up into the clouds just doesn't do justice to the examples we have of what this 'catching up' is all about. Unless of course you only stick to a strict literal understanding and fail to consider what is going on in the realm which we cannot see. In which case I have to wonder why the Lord bothers to tell us these things at all using metaphorical language. What division of soul and spirit is needed by the word of God if everything is to be only carnally understood in such an hyper-literal way? I feel the same way Robin. I think many of us - probably all of us are going to get our baby bkues opened in the end. What a glorious adventure seems to lie ahead. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 2, 2009 0:22:36 GMT -5
I agree Allyn, and yet desire to be open to a change of mind. But I just don't see a reason to expect the world must end given that the spiritual realm does not require it to be so. There is no good reason I can see that this world has to end for us to have the promise, when the promise is not about this world at all. The presence of the kingdom of God in this world spiritually does not necessitate that we cannot enjoy the fullness of that kingdom when we pass over nor that this world must end for us to do so.
How does a world that has no end require that we see an end here in order to enjoy it? I don't see that it does. And I could care less about threats of global warmings or the earth tilting or even nuclear war, because the Lord sustains the life here. And there is nothing that faithless men can do that can thwart the purposes of God for His creation. For a remnant is all He needs to keep it going for ever.
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Post by Allyn on Jul 2, 2009 6:42:13 GMT -5
I agree Allyn, and yet desire to be open to a change of mind. But I just don't see a reason to expect the world must end given that the spiritual realm does not require it to be so. There is no good reason I can see that this world has to end for us to have the promise, when the promise is not about this world at all. The presence of the kingdom of God in this world spiritually does not necessitate that we cannot enjoy the fullness of that kingdom when we pass over nor that this world must end for us to do so. How does a world that has no end require that we see an end here in order to enjoy it? I don't see that it does. And I could care less about threats of global warmings or the earth tilting or even nuclear war, because the Lord sustains the life here. And there is nothing that faithless men can do that can thwart the purposes of God for His creation. For a remnant is all He needs to keep it going for ever. I am totally with you on this, Robin. Take me for example. Even with the trials and tribulations common to man, my life, inspite of those things just gets better and better. I don't mean in the sense that I have material possessions or not (those things mean nothing to me and I live guite modestly) But I mean in the sense of a loving family and loving wife and great offspring. I have always said that I must do my part out of love and respect for this planet we live on but ultimately God is in charge of it and He is going to preserve it intact. When I was a dispie I was one who followed after "the end of the world is coming" people. I bought their books and watched their shows. I read everything they said into the Bible and I was certain that every new decade would be the last. I never planned for my future, because there was none coming to plan for and I really was a more miserable person then I knew I was. But my new found understanding has also brought me new found joy in Christ. He is my hope now and not just some future time with and endtime senerio. I love life more then ever before and I bring the Gospel of Christ to others (as God wills it) not because I want to get it to them before Christ returns but now because its Christ they need for wonderful and abundant life while we are still having a heart beat. People ask, what have we to look for if we don't believe Jesus is yet to come. I think that is such a silly question in light of the fact that God placed us here to serve others and to be a light unto the world. |
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