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Post by eazie7 on May 5, 2009 19:29:00 GMT -5
What do you (anyone) believe about the resurrection on the last day? I lean toward a physical res. though a spiritual one seems pretty legit. A few reasons I have for a physical resurrection is: 1. Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus all ascended into heaven physically. This seems to indicate that the physical could enter into heaven. 2. Jesus body was physical. He told Thomas to reach into His side and feel his body. Yet, it still seems that the bible speaks of a spiritual body in opposition not conduction with this present earthly body. Some say that all of the bones and deteriorated dust of the earth will by God's power recollect into your original body but yet it'll be spiritual and flawless. We are discussing this very thing in Sunday School. I know that God can do anything but the more I think about this it doesn't seem feasible (of course that could be a reason that God could show His power). More to the point, is it what the Word says? We lose skin cells every day. I'm not sure exactly how long it takes but I've been told some of our internal organs are completely renewed several times. So, in the resurrection does everything that pertains to our earthly "lowly" body have to be brought back to ourselves down to every atom. Think of all the hair that has been cut off. We'd have a mile long hairdo.  I'd like to get a better grip on what the resurrection means in the bible w/ out peering into something beyond knowledge that is given by the Word. This article is interesting: www.preteristvoice.org/A1C.htmlBut seems to go beyond debating a physical res. to saying that Jesus res. was only spiritual. That he appeared to the disciples in the spirit. I think the bible is pretty clear that he rose physically. Where did his physical body go that Mary and the others did not see it at the tomb? What did doubting Thomas feel when he touched His body? Though the trend today is to overliteralize the scriptures there is also a danger in overspiritualizing them. What say you? |
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Post by Once4all on May 5, 2009 22:02:18 GMT -5
I'm just going to ramble and throw in some verses.
In Acts 17:31, Paul is speaking and says that Christ being raised from the dead was a form of proof that Jesus was the man appointed by God to judge the world in righteousness.
(Acts 17:31 NASB) because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Acts 10:40-42 states that God raised him up and granted that he become visible to specific people, not to all people. These people were to be witnesses that would testify that Jesus is the one appointed by God as judge.
Acts 10:40-42 NASB
(40) "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
(41) not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
(42) "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Again, in Acts 13:30-31 we are told that God raised him from the dead and he appeared to those who would be witnesses to the people.
Acts 13:30-31 NASB
(30) "But God raised Him from the dead;
(31) and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.
A few verses later, in Acts 13:35, Psalm 16:10 is quoted, which says that "You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay." I think it is interesting that this promise of not undergoing decay is made about ONE PERSON, the Holy One of God. I think this is related to the PROOF God was to provide about just who Jesus was (Acts 17:31).
(Acts 13:35 NASB) "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'
OK, now for a slightly different approach...
In John 2:19-21, Jesus said that his body was God's temple.
John 2:19-21 NASB
(19) Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
(20) The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
(21) But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
And Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:19 that the bodies of believers are a temple of the Holy Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 6:19 NASB) Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
God's presence on earth used to be in the Holy of Holies in the temple, first in the tabernacle in the wilderness, then in the temple in Jerusalem. But since the time of Christ, God's presence is in the new temple, the one that Jesus began to build. Peter writes in 1 Peter 2:5 that we are living stones being built up as a spiritual house (a temple).
(1 Peter 2:5 NASB) you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Our bodies are God's temple on earth. But when we die, our bodies are no longer needed as a temple because --
(Revelation 21:22 NASB) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
It's possible that the physical body of Jesus that was raised is still a temple of God in heaven, but Revelation doesn't say anything about believers bodies being temples in heaven.
That's all, I've rambled enough. I just put this together as I typed, so any problems anyone sees please post them!
Bev
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Post by eazie7 on May 7, 2009 14:34:53 GMT -5
Yea, Once4all. I have wondered that. Jesus has given us His body whereby we put off our own flesh in the sacrifice. And in heaven maybe we will still see the wounds of Jesus. He will be the only one with scars left.
More on a spiritual resurrection:
When I read in 1 Cor. 15:44 that the body is sown I don't take this to mean placed in the grave. I may be mistaken but I thought this meant our lives (the sum of our actions) on earth are as a sowing that in the resurrection will be raised to their respectable body.
1 Cor. 15:50 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Also 1 Cor. 15:53,54.
It seems that through this body we are bound to this world. And when death occurs our spiritual body will be given its form.
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Post by Once4all on May 7, 2009 23:50:34 GMT -5
Eazie, I'm too tired right now to present anything coherent, but as I was reading through 1 Corinthians 15 last night, the thought occurred to me that it has nothing to do at all with an after-death resurrection, but rather a here-and-now in our Christian walk resurrection, to walk "in newness of life."
(Romans 6:4 NASB) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Is that kind of what you are saying, too?
Bev
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Post by eazie7 on May 8, 2009 17:01:51 GMT -5
Once4All, There is surely no doubt a present walking in newness. I'm not a full preterist myself. Maybe like a 3/4.  We are going to die and then the judgement. There is no doubt that Jesus body was a physical flesh and blood body- Luke 24:39. I'm not sure what we are going to be raised as. All spirit and equal to the angels- Luke 20:36. But sometimes angels appeared in flesh and blood. And so would we be raised from the dust into new forms? As in- does this present physical body have anything to do with our new body? Or is it corrupted and forgotten? |
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Post by Allyn on May 8, 2009 17:31:46 GMT -5
Once4All,
There is surely no doubt a present walking in newness. I'm not a full preterist myself. Maybe like a 3/4.
We are going to die and then the judgement. There is no doubt that Jesus body was a physical flesh and blood body- Luke 24:39.
I'm not sure what we are going to be raised as. All spirit and equal to the angels- Luke 20:36. But sometimes angels appeared in flesh and blood. And so would we be raised from the dust into new forms? As in- does this present physical body have anything to do with our new body? Or is it corrupted and forgotten? Hi new member and welcome. You said that maybe you were only a 3/4 preterist. Just curious, eazie7, if you might explain your preterist position. I am a full preterist but I probably prefer being referred to as a Biblist. I hope to see what you have to say. |
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Post by eazie7 on May 9, 2009 14:46:01 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
Well, though the resurrection of Jesus has taken place and I have been resurrected into life spiritually with Him, I believe there is yet to be a general resurrection. So that would be unfulfilled prophecy. Granted, all prophecy is fulfilled in Christ, I believe God is going to accomplish greater things in this space time earth.
2 Timothy 2:18 This verse is written after Jesus rose from the dead and after Pentecost.
Luke 20:35 Obviously this verse isn't about a present walking in the newness of life with Christ or else Christians wouldn't be getting married.
The idea that the resurrection is once we die doesn't seem to follow scripture either because it speaks of a resurrection of all men at one time both righteous and unrighteous, sheep and goats.
So if the resurrection is not only a present spiritual awakening (there is hope for more), and its not death, then the bible talks of a resurrection event where God makes a final judgement.
Preterists believe in prophetic foreshortening and the temple destruction is another picture of the judgement that God will bring at a final time.
That is roughly where I'm at. On the resurrection at least.
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Post by mellontes on May 22, 2009 9:08:39 GMT -5
The resurrection has little to do with human material body forms. It is simply a resurrection from death unto life.
The body that was first sown (since it also is the one to be raised) is the old covenant body of death defined by the ministration of death.
The body that is raised is the new covenant body in Christ.
First the natural, then the spiritual. As demonstrated by old covenant Israel and then the Israel of God (in Christ - including Gentiles).
There is usually an accompanying "physical" expression to show that the "spiritual" has taken place. This is necessary because we can not humanly see into the spiritual realm.
The Jews (and the disciples) missed the coming of Elijah in John the Baptist. They were looking for a "physical" fulfillment. Many dispies also look for this Elijah to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation. That won't be happening if we are willing to receive what Jesus had to say on the subject.
The Jews missed the Messiah because they were focused upon a "physical" realization of the kingdom - totally against what Jesus was proclaiming.
Today, many are still looking for a "physical" return (although "return" is perhaps a bit misleading), a physical kingdom and a physical resurrection - but they are all severely and sincerely in error. It is no different with the resurrection.
I strongly suggest that a study on "flesh" be undertaken and see how it is contrasted and compared with "spirit," "promise," and "free." Paul expressed these as being the two covenants. The NT is all about the contrast of these two things.
Concerning the two covenant bodies:
2 Corinthians 3:7-11 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is [BEING] done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Philippians 3:2121 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Do you see the heavenly body (spiritual) versus the carnal (natural) body?
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
Do you see how these "heavenly" objects are consistently used as referring to the headship of Israel?
1 Corinthians 15:43-44 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Can you see the two covenants?
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Can you say "R-A-P-T-U-R-E"?
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Is the purchased possession the body of Christ (Jew and Gentile believers) or the human material body?
Hebrews 3:1-6 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Do you see the glory of Moses (Law) contrasted with the greater glory of Christ (Spirit)?
1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Blessings, Ted
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Post by Allyn on May 22, 2009 13:50:36 GMT -5
The resurrection has little to do with human material body forms. It is simply a resurrection from death unto life. The body that was first sown (since it also is the one to be raised) is the old covenant body of death defined by the ministration of death. The body that is raised is the new covenant body in Christ. First the natural, then the spiritual. As demonstrated by old covenant Israel and then the Israel of God (in Christ - including Gentiles). There is usually an accompanying "physical" expression to show that the "spiritual" has taken place. This is necessary because we can not humanly see into the spiritual realm. The Jews (and the disciples) missed the coming of Elijah in John the Baptist. They were looking for a "physical" fulfillment. Many dispies also look for this Elijah to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation. That won't be happening if we are willing to receive what Jesus had to say on the subject. The Jews missed the Messiah because they were focused upon a "physical" realization of the kingdom - totally against what Jesus was proclaiming. Today, many are still looking for a "physical" return (although "return" is perhaps a bit misleading), a physical kingdom and a physical resurrection - but they are all severely and sincerely in error. It is no different with the resurrection. I strongly suggest that a study on "flesh" be undertaken and see how it is contrasted and compared with "spirit," "promise," and "free." Paul expressed these as being the two covenants. The NT is all about the contrast of these two things. Concerning the two covenant bodies: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is [BEING] done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Philippians 3:2121 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. 1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. Do you see the heavenly body (spiritual) versus the carnal (natural) body? 1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Do you see how these "heavenly" objects are consistently used as referring to the headship of Israel? 1 Corinthians 15:43-44 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Can you see the two covenants? 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Can you say "R-A-P-T-U-R-E"? Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Is the purchased possession the body of Christ (Jew and Gentile believers) or the human material body? Hebrews 3:1-6 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Do you see the glory of Moses (Law) contrasted with the greater glory of Christ (Spirit)? 1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Blessings, Ted Glad to see you back brother, How would Daniel fit into this. Was the angel talking about a resurrection after physical death for those like him? Daniel did die and had to wait in his grave. Was his death an old covenant death and his raising a new covenant life? I guess what I mean is does true physical death pay any part in this? Does one have to even die physically for your view to take place? I want to understand better.  |
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Post by Once4all on May 22, 2009 15:29:24 GMT -5
... There is usually an accompanying "physical" expression to show that the "spiritual" has taken place. This is necessary because we can not humanly see into the spiritual realm. ... Ted, your simple comment pointed me to a wonderful insight. I'm not sure if I read about it elsewhere in some book on preterism, or if it's a new thought for me. We know that scripture tells us that the resurrected Jesus was visible only to certain people: Acts 10:40-41 NASB (40) "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, (41) not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. Your comment that there is usually an accompanying physical expression to show that the spiritual had taken place made me think of this instance from 2 Kings 6 - (2 Kings 6:17 NASB) Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. The body in which Jesus was resurrected could not have been his earthly physical body, otherwise everyone would have been able to see him. But it was a spiritual body and thus only those to whom God granted Jesus could be seen could see him. Another passage from 2 Kings also comes to mind: 2 Kings 2:11-12 NASB (11) As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. (12) Elisha saw it and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces. This reminds me of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus who, while they were walking and talking, Jesus approached and walked along with them "but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him" (Luke 24:16). Then later, while they were eating, "their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he vanished from their sight." (Luke 24:31). The same passage, 2 Kings 2:11-12, is also reminiscent of Jesus' ascension in Acts 1 where he "was lifted up while they were looking on" (Acts 1:9). Earlier in 2 Kings 2, Elijah kept telling Elisha to "please stay here," but Elisha, ever devout, kept telling Elijah that he would not leave him (2 Kings 2:1-6). Then Elijah's blessing on Elisha (that Elisha receive a double portion of Elijah's spirit) was dependent on whether Elisha would see Elijah being taken from him (2 Kings 2:10). Jesus' ascension was witnessed by those who remained devoted to him throughout his ministry. By following him, remaining devout, they were present when he was lifted up from them. The blessing of Christ that was to come was the giving of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39; John 16:7). There's probably a smoother way to tie all these passages together, but that will take more time. Bev |
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Post by mellontes on May 22, 2009 16:33:03 GMT -5
The resurrection has little to do with human material body forms. It is simply a resurrection from death unto life. The body that was first sown (since it also is the one to be raised) is the old covenant body of death defined by the ministration of death. The body that is raised is the new covenant body in Christ. First the natural, then the spiritual. As demonstrated by old covenant Israel and then the Israel of God (in Christ - including Gentiles). There is usually an accompanying "physical" expression to show that the "spiritual" has taken place. This is necessary because we can not humanly see into the spiritual realm. The Jews (and the disciples) missed the coming of Elijah in John the Baptist. They were looking for a "physical" fulfillment. Many dispies also look for this Elijah to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation. That won't be happening if we are willing to receive what Jesus had to say on the subject. The Jews missed the Messiah because they were focused upon a "physical" realization of the kingdom - totally against what Jesus was proclaiming. Today, many are still looking for a "physical" return (although "return" is perhaps a bit misleading), a physical kingdom and a physical resurrection - but they are all severely and sincerely in error. It is no different with the resurrection. I strongly suggest that a study on "flesh" be undertaken and see how it is contrasted and compared with "spirit," "promise," and "free." Paul expressed these as being the two covenants. The NT is all about the contrast of these two things. Concerning the two covenant bodies: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is [BEING] done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Philippians 3:2121 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. 1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. Do you see the heavenly body (spiritual) versus the carnal (natural) body? 1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Do you see how these "heavenly" objects are consistently used as referring to the headship of Israel? 1 Corinthians 15:43-44 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Can you see the two covenants? 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Can you say "R-A-P-T-U-R-E"? Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Is the purchased possession the body of Christ (Jew and Gentile believers) or the human material body? Hebrews 3:1-6 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Do you see the glory of Moses (Law) contrasted with the greater glory of Christ (Spirit)? 1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Blessings, Ted Glad to see you back brother, How would Daniel fit into this. Was the angel talking about a resurrection after physical death for those like him? Daniel did die and had to wait in his grave. Was his death an old covenant death and his raising a new covenant life? I guess what I mean is does true physical death pay any part in this? Does one have to even die physically for your view to take place? I want to understand better. Two resurrections: 1) For those who had died in faith before having the chance to be "In Christ - those in hades/sheol/hell/grave 2) For those who had died in Christ who still went to that same resting place 3) For those alive and under condemnation of death (separation from God - the Jewish definition of death) And very importantly, 1 Corinthians uses the present passive verb (is being). It is normally translated as a future will, shall, should, etc. This is a major difficulty... Did you know that immortality only comes as a result of being in Christ by the gospel? Goota go, burgers are burning... |
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Post by mellontes on May 22, 2009 16:33:33 GMT -5
... There is usually an accompanying "physical" expression to show that the "spiritual" has taken place. This is necessary because we can not humanly see into the spiritual realm. ... Ted, your simple comment pointed me to a wonderful insight. I'm not sure if I read about it elsewhere in some book on preterism, or if it's a new thought for me. We know that scripture tells us that the resurrected Jesus was visible only to certain people: Acts 10:40-41 NASB (40) "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, (41) not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. Your comment that there is usually an accompanying physical expression to show that the spiritual had taken place made me think of this instance from 2 Kings 6 - (2 Kings 6:17 NASB) Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. The body in which Jesus was resurrected could not have been his earthly physical body, otherwise everyone would have been able to see him. But it was a spiritual body and thus only those to whom God granted Jesus could be seen could see him. Another passage from 2 Kings also comes to mind: 2 Kings 2:11-12 NASB (11) As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. (12) Elisha saw it and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces. This reminds me of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus who, while they were walking and talking, Jesus approached and walked along with them "but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him" (Luke 24:16). Then later, while they were eating, "their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he vanished from their sight." (Luke 24:31). The same passage, 2 Kings 2:11-12, is also reminiscent of Jesus' ascension in Acts 1 where he "was lifted up while they were looking on" (Acts 1:9). Earlier in 2 Kings 2, Elijah kept telling Elisha to "please say here," but Elisha, ever devout, kept telling Elijah that he would not leave him (2 Kings 2:1-6). Then Elijah's blessing on Elisha (that Elisha receive a double portion of Elijah's spirit) was dependent on whether Elisha would see Elijah being taken from him (2 Kings 2:10). Jesus' ascension was witnessed by those who remained devoted to him throughout his ministry. By following him, remaining devout, they were present when he was lifted up from them. The blessing of Christ that was to come was the giving of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39; John 16:7). There's probably a smoother way to tie all these passages together, but that will take more time. Bev I think you are on to something here... |
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Post by Once4all on May 22, 2009 17:59:37 GMT -5
I think you are on to something here... Thanks. And I've gone back and corrected my typo... "please stay here" rather than "please say here." |
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Post by mellontes on May 24, 2009 7:09:29 GMT -5
I justed wanted to add a couple of things:
If immortality is only available through and in Christ (2 Timothy 1:10), then can we consider Adam immortal? But yet he is considered immortal, but in a totally unbiblical manner. Immortality is often associated with "NOT BEING ABLE TO DIE PHYSICALLY," because the "death" is also associated with physically dying.
And since immortality is only via Christ, does it not also speak of the new heavenly body, the body of Christ. Now compare this with the old covenant body of death - the mortal body. These are the bodies being contrasted in 1 Corinthians 15!
Remember the two covenants: one by the flesh and the other by the Spirit...
Besides, Adam was not the first human. That should get you talking.
Blessings, Ted
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Post by Allyn on May 24, 2009 8:38:49 GMT -5
I justed wanted to add a couple of things: If immortality is only available through and in Christ (2 Timothy 1:10), then can we consider Adam immortal? But yet he is considered immortal, but in a totally unbiblical manner. Immortality is often associated with "NOT BEING ABLE TO DIE PHYSICALLY," because the "death" is also associated with physically dying. And since immortality is only via Christ, does it not also speak of the new heavenly body, the body of Christ. Now compare this with the old covenant body of death - the mortal body. These are the bodies being contrasted in 1 Corinthians 15! Remember the two covenants: one by the flesh and the other by the Spirit... Besides, Adam was not the first human. That should get you talking.Blessings, Ted Hi Ted, God made man in His own image. If man existed before Adam, who was in fact that man made in His image, then who's image were men before Adam made in? |
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Post by mellontes on May 24, 2009 13:57:09 GMT -5
I justed wanted to add a couple of things: If immortality is only available through and in Christ (2 Timothy 1:10), then can we consider Adam immortal? But yet he is considered immortal, but in a totally unbiblical manner. Immortality is often associated with "NOT BEING ABLE TO DIE PHYSICALLY," because the "death" is also associated with physically dying. And since immortality is only via Christ, does it not also speak of the new heavenly body, the body of Christ. Now compare this with the old covenant body of death - the mortal body. These are the bodies being contrasted in 1 Corinthians 15! Remember the two covenants: one by the flesh and the other by the Spirit... Besides, Adam was not the first human. That should get you talking.Blessings, Ted Hi Ted, God made man in His own image. If man existed before Adam, who was in fact that man made in His image, then who's image were men before Adam made in? Colossians 3:9-10 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Compare Genesis 1:27 with Galatians 3:28 Here is a series of messages regarding the resurrection by Sam Frost... including 1 Corinthians 15... www.thereignofchrist.com/writings/commentary.html#catid23 |
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Post by Allyn on May 24, 2009 15:04:31 GMT -5
I was hoping you would answer how it is you came to your conclusion, Ted. How does Col. 3 really deal with the idea that there were created men before Adam? God said; "Let us make man in our image according to our likeness." Is that to say then that God was saying "look we have already made man, so now lets make one in our image"? It is already proclaimed that God had the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind. Would that include pre-adam man? I feel this is not what the Bible teaches. Of course there are mysteries and we may never know what creatures existed then that do not now but I don't believe the Bible teaches anything about a type of man which did not have the breath of life given to man and separate from all othe creatures. Am I wrong somehow?
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Post by Once4all on May 24, 2009 19:16:42 GMT -5
Man takes on the "image" of that which he worships. Not a physical image, but the attributes of the object of worship. That's why when man turns to idols in the Bible, idols that are lifeless and without spirit, man becomes spiritually lifeless: spiritually deaf, dumb, and blind. They turn to "darkness" and do the deeds of darkness.
God made man to worship Him and thus man was created with the attributes of light and love. When man turns away from God, he is no longer reflecting God's image but a corrupted image, an image in which darkness dwells. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5).
Colossians 1:13-15 NASB
(13) For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
(14) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
(15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Adam, the first man of creation, was made in the image of God. Jesus, the last Adam, also reflected the image of God, the firstborn of a new creation.
Ephesians 5:8-9 NASB
(8) for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
(9) (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
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