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Post by Once4all on Jan 27, 2009 14:52:22 GMT -5
In this excellent article about the supposed 1000-year reign of Christ -- www.preteristvoice.org/1000.html -- the concluding paragraph contains this sentence: "The Truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity." My questions are: - where is the scriptural support for Christ to reign eternally? and - how does that harmonize with 1 Corinthians 15:24 & 28, which states that Christ will hand over the kingdom to his God and Father (verse 24) and that the Son will then be subject to God (verse 28)? Bev |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 27, 2009 15:16:39 GMT -5
That is a good question Bev, and if it weren't for the fact that we do have the concept of kingdom and throne and eternity all wrapped into a nice little passage in the Old Testament, we would maybe just have to think otherwise that Jesus hands the finished work over to God and then Jesus goes off and plays golf or tennis or something. But I think we do have it made clearer for us in the first introduction of the kingdom.
2 Sam. 7:12
12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”’”
Davids throne was established forever and it was established by Jesus Christ and then God says it is His son's kingdom forever.
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Post by mellontes on Jan 27, 2009 15:17:52 GMT -5
In this excellent article about the supposed 1000-year reign of Christ -- www.preteristvoice.org/1000.html -- the concluding paragraph contains this sentence: "The Truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity." My questions are: - where is the scriptural support for Christ to reign eternally? and - how does that harmonize with 1 Corinthians 15:24 & 28, which states that Christ will hand over the kingdom to his God and Father (verse 24) and that the Son will then be subject to God (verse 28)? Bev I could be barking up the wrong tree (again), but why do we assume that it is Christ that is reigning in verse 25? 1 Corinthians 15:25 - For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. It seems that the one who is reigning is the same one who puts all enemies under his feet. In verse 27 the association with the one who puts all enemies under his feet is made with the one who puts all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:27 - For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under himBut in the next verse (28) it seems that God is the one who did all this, not Jesus... because now the Son is now subject to the one that put all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Am I missing something here? |
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Post by Sower on Jan 27, 2009 15:25:54 GMT -5
In this excellent article about the supposed 1000-year reign of Christ -- www.preteristvoice.org/1000.html -- the concluding paragraph contains this sentence: "The Truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity." My questions are: - where is the scriptural support for Christ to reign eternally? Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is "for ever and ever." a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Psalm 93:1-2; 96:10! Bev, I undertsand what you are asking, but those verses doesn't say Jesus stop reigning when he hand over the kingdom to the Father. Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 27, 2009 16:04:53 GMT -5
In this excellent article about the supposed 1000-year reign of Christ -- www.preteristvoice.org/1000.html -- the concluding paragraph contains this sentence: "The Truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity." My questions are: - where is the scriptural support for Christ to reign eternally? and - how does that harmonize with 1 Corinthians 15:24 & 28, which states that Christ will hand over the kingdom to his God and Father (verse 24) and that the Son will then be subject to God (verse 28)? Bev I could be barking up the wrong tree (again), but why do we assume that it is Christ that is reigning in verse 25? 1 Corinthians 15:25 - For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. It seems that the one who is reigning is the same one who puts all enemies under his feet. In verse 27 the association with the one who puts all enemies under his feet is made with the one who puts all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:27 - For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under himBut in the next verse (28) it seems that God is the one who did all this, not Jesus... because now the Son is now subject to the one that put all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Am I missing something here? Good point.  |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 28, 2009 9:38:43 GMT -5
That is a good question Bev, and if it weren't for the fact that we do have the concept of kingdom and throne and eternity all wrapped into a nice little passage in the Old Testament, we would maybe just have to think otherwise that Jesus hands the finished work over to God and then Jesus goes off and plays golf or tennis or something. But I think we do have it made clearer for us in the first introduction of the kingdom. 2 Sam. 7:12 12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”’” Davids throne was established forever and it was established by Jesus Christ and then God says it is His son's kingdom forever. Thanks for replying. I see your conclusion as a possible conclusion of what that passage is saying; however, I also see that it could mean that the kingdom endures forever, not necessarily referring to the one sitting on the throne of that kingdom. Even so, with the conclusion that Jesus is the one forever on the throne of the kingdom, the passage still places God the Father above even the king, having rule over the king. So it is a kingdom with a ruler even above the king. This is actually an excellent illustration showing the difference in the "king of Kings" Greek terminology between 1 Timothy and Revelation (which I will be glad to elaborate on if desired). Bev |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 28, 2009 12:52:55 GMT -5
I could be barking up the wrong tree (again), but why do we assume that it is Christ that is reigning in verse 25? 1 Corinthians 15:25 - For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. It seems that the one who is reigning is the same one who puts all enemies under his feet. In verse 27 the association with the one who puts all enemies under his feet is made with the one who puts all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:27 - For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under himBut in the next verse (28) it seems that God is the one who did all this, not Jesus... because now the Son is now subject to the one that put all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Am I missing something here? Let's look at it: 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 24 then comes the end, when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He (Jesus, though I can see where this could be questioned) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (God) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). (This wouldn't make sense any other way, would it?) 28 When all things are subjected to Him (Jesus), then the Son Himself (the inclusion of "Himself" here supports that the previous "Him" is Jesus; otherwise, "Himself" is an extraneous and unnecessary word) also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all. |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 28, 2009 14:22:35 GMT -5
I could be barking up the wrong tree (again), but why do we assume that it is Christ that is reigning in verse 25? 1 Corinthians 15:25 - For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. It seems that the one who is reigning is the same one who puts all enemies under his feet. In verse 27 the association with the one who puts all enemies under his feet is made with the one who puts all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:27 - For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under himBut in the next verse (28) it seems that God is the one who did all this, not Jesus... because now the Son is now subject to the one that put all things under him. 1 Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Am I missing something here? Let's look at it: 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 24 then comes the end, when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He (Jesus, though I can see where this could be questioned) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (God) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). (This wouldn't make sense any other way, would it?) 28 When all things are subjected to Him (Jesus), then the Son Himself (the inclusion of "Himself" here supports that the previous "Him" is Jesus; otherwise, "Himself" is an extraneous and unnecessary word) also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all. I am not smart enough to digest all of that stuff... |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 28, 2009 16:35:01 GMT -5
Let me try and approach it from this angle.
I believe that the handing over of the kingdom may very well be a part of the legality set up in virtually all things pertaining to men in relationship to God through His Son Christ Jesus. We all know, for example, that God cannot tolerate sin and sin must be dealt with legally. Thus we have God faced with a dilemma as to what to do with those He loves but cannot abide with because of sin. Of course I am speaking in terms of men but yet this is how God mostly relates to us as well. He talks down to us so that we can better understand those things which would otherwise not be understood.
So we have the legal issue of the Son who was sent by the Father to perform the task as depicted in the story of the wicked vineyard keepers. Jesus was obligated to the One who sent Him. Jesus stated these kind of words often and so it is not foreign to us in that regard.
The process began before the cross in the upper room by announcing the new covenant, then the cross and then the resurrection with the raising of Christ and continues in the experience of the Spirit of the resurrection. This process is to end with the raising of all the dead and the annihilation of death. Then Christ will have completed the legal aspect and can then hand over the kingdom as consummated sovereignty to God the Father, "so that God may be in all" (1 Cor. 15:20-28). Christ rules as the leader of life. His sovereignty was completed in the world at the resurrection. His last enemy was death.
In the language of the handing over of the kingdom, this is also the perfecting of the obedience of the Son (1 Cor. 15:28). In Matthew 11:27 Jesus said, "all things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
This rest is also a part of the legal action of God. To obey the Law brought a certain rest to the children of Israel. But yet no one can obey the Law perfectly and so the rest was never long lived in their lives. But in Christ Jesus, God satisfies the demand of the Law and our rest is found complete in Christ.
And so we come full circle. Christ provided the satisfaction according to the Law. Jesus did it in obedience to the Father and once His work is completed he hands the legal document over to the Father, signed, sealed and delivered.
Christ is forever on the throne of David as the only one worthy to be seated on that throne but God has the kingdom due Him to satisfy the legal requirements and having all sin accounted for in Christ.
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Post by Sower on Jan 28, 2009 17:09:41 GMT -5
Wow! That's wonderful! Thanks, Allyn!  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 29, 2009 12:44:21 GMT -5
Pretty good, Allyn. Thanks. I don't see anything in there to disagree with.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Jan 29, 2009 13:04:42 GMT -5
Pretty good, Allyn. Thanks. I don't see anything in there to disagree with.
Bev Thanks, I think we can also develop the firstfruits concept a little also. Maybe later. |
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