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Post by stephenpatrick on Jan 25, 2009 9:11:32 GMT -5
Good morning everyone,
After the resurrection of Jesus, in John 20:17 it says, Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Jesus did not want Mary to touch Jesus, yet eight days later, while meeting with the apostles Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
My question: what happened within those eight days that Jesus was now allowing someone to touch Him? The text doesn't say Thomas did touch him, but Jesus, unlike with Mary, was now saying it was OK to touch Him. Did He ascend to the Father from the time of meeting with Mary and now with all of the apostles? Or is it because Mary believed and Thomas did not?
Thanks
Steve
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Post by Allyn on Jan 25, 2009 9:19:27 GMT -5
Good morning everyone, After the resurrection of Jesus, in John 20:17 it says, Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."Jesus did not want Mary to touch Jesus, yet eight days later, while meeting with the apostles Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"My question: what happened within those eight days that Jesus was now allowing someone to touch Him? The text doesn't say Thomas did touch him, but Jesus, unlike with Mary, was now saying it was OK to touch Him. Did He ascend to the Father from the time of meeting with Mary and now with all of the apostles? Or is it because Mary believed and Thomas did not? Thanks Steve I think that is a good question and a good point concerning belief. I think that is in large part what was going on. The resurrected body of Jesus at the tomb area and the one in the room where Thomas was may have been a different appearing body for the purpose of belief. There is not much information to go on. |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 25, 2009 14:23:00 GMT -5
Good morning everyone, After the resurrection of Jesus, in John 20:17 it says, Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."Jesus did not want Mary to touch Jesus, yet eight days later, while meeting with the apostles Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"My question: what happened within those eight days that Jesus was now allowing someone to touch Him? The text doesn't say Thomas did touch him, but Jesus, unlike with Mary, was now saying it was OK to touch Him. Did He ascend to the Father from the time of meeting with Mary and now with all of the apostles? Or is it because Mary believed and Thomas did not? Thanks Steve First, let me say that I firmly believe that the spiritual realm is not subject to time. I don't have any scripture to support that belief except that YHWH said He is "I AM" and Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." After Jesus met Mary, I believe Rev.12:5-11 took place, starting with the latter part of verse 5. Jesus ascended back to the Father, and then, as THE ruler of the angels, went to do battle with Satan and boot the accuser of the brethren out of the presence of God. That might have taken all of 20 seconds in our time. Then He came back showing Himself and eating with and being handled by the disciples (Matt.28:9, Luke 24:39, 1 John 1:1). preteristmouse |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Jan 25, 2009 19:35:20 GMT -5
Thanks. I've been looking around the forum and found this from MoGrace2U at the bottom of the page, which is actually another answer to my question above. livebytr.proboards85.com/index.cgi?board=ac&action=display&thread=150&page=1I am inclined to think that Jesus ascending to heaven 40 days after His resurrection was NOT when He fulfilled Dan 7:13. Rather it was much earlier - either before His resurrection or more likely sometime between dawn and when He appeared to the disciples that evening. At dawn He specifically tells Mary not to touch Him because He has not yet ascended to the Father. The reason why I asked was because yesterday I had a nice chat with my nephew. He is a young pastor and during our discussion he asked me that question and I told him I would put it to the folks on this forum, and then get back to him. Steve |
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Post by Sower on Jan 25, 2009 20:20:31 GMT -5
Thanks. I've been looking around the forum and found this from MoGrace2U at the bottom of the page, which is actually another answer to my question above. livebytr.proboards85.com/index.cgi?board=ac&action=display&thread=150&page=1I am inclined to think that Jesus ascending to heaven 40 days after His resurrection was NOT when He fulfilled Dan 7:13. Rather it was much earlier - either before His resurrection or more likely sometime between dawn and when He appeared to the disciples that evening. At dawn He specifically tells Mary not to touch Him because He has not yet ascended to the Father. The reason why I asked was because yesterday I had a nice chat with my nephew. He is a young pastor and during our discussion he asked me that question and I told him I would put it to the folks on this forum, and then get back to him. Steve Hi Steve, I thought Daniel 7:13, was fulfilled when Jesus ascended back to heaven (Acts 1:9). However, after reading MoGrace2u comments, I'm not sure.  I'm sorry that I couldn't be more helpful! Blessings, Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Jan 25, 2009 20:22:30 GMT -5
Hi Steve,
Just chucking in my penny's worth. The Greek word rendered "touch" in many translation can also mean "to cling to". Some translations render this passage:
(EMTV) - "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God".
or......
(GNB) - "Do not hold on to me," Jesus told her, "because I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them that I am returning to him who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God."
Thus, it may not have been the "touching" that was the problem, but the clinging to him. Jesus follows the comment with "for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God".
There's an interesting piece about this in Adam Clarke's commentary. It says:
"Touch me not - Μη μου ἁπτου, Cling not to me. Ἁπτομαι has this sense in Job_31:7, where the Septuagint use it for the Hebrew דבק dabak, which signifies to cleave, cling, stick, or be glued to. From Mat_28:9, it appears that some of the women held him by the feet and worshipped him. This probably Mary did; and our Lord seems to have spoken to her to this effect: “Spend no longer time with me now: I am not going immediately to heaven - you will have several opportunities of seeing me again: but go and tell my disciples, that I am, by and by, to ascend to my Father and God, who is your Father and God also. Therefore, let them take courage.”
Not sure if that helps.
Paul
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Post by stephenpatrick on Jan 25, 2009 20:45:58 GMT -5
Hi Paul,
Earlier this morning I read something similar about "clinging" and "falling at His feet and holding Him." I didn't check the author. But since it was something I had heard about many years ago I was just wondering if there was anything else to the event.
Thanks
Steve
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jan 25, 2009 21:57:59 GMT -5
Several things happened at the cross which our time frame doesn't correlate well. Like Satan being cast to the earth. But the main reason I think Jesus must have ascended prior to His appointment with the disciples that evening, is because when He comes into them, He commissions them with the authority of the kingdom. I think that is significant in that how can He pass to them what He has not already received? ala Dan 7:13,14.
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Post by john14and9 on Jan 25, 2009 22:35:01 GMT -5
Good morning everyone, After the resurrection of Jesus, in John 20:17 it says, Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."Jesus did not want Mary to touch Jesus, yet eight days later, while meeting with the apostles Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"My question: what happened within those eight days that Jesus was now allowing someone to touch Him? The text doesn't say Thomas did touch him, but Jesus, unlike with Mary, was now saying it was OK to touch Him. Did He ascend to the Father from the time of meeting with Mary and now with all of the apostles? Or is it because Mary believed and Thomas did not? Thanks Steve Heb 9:14-How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 26, 2009 0:02:18 GMT -5
Heb 9:14-How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Excellent verse. I believe that Acts 1:9-11 shows Jesus in front of witnesses entering into the true Holy of Holies as the spotless Lamb and then Heb.9:24-28 summarizes His entering in and those witnesses waiting for His appearing again. However, His ascension after He talked to Mary was a mystery and I think it corresponds with Rev.12:5-11 and the war in heaven. Some years before I became a preterist, I covered the war in heaven in a tad more detail in the following article: www.angelfire.com/tn2/holyword/satan.htmlpreteristmouse |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 26, 2009 9:32:59 GMT -5
John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Another odd thing is why would Jesus tell her to say these things to his brethren when he could just tell them himself later? By telling Mary to say it to them, the implication is that he was going to be doing that (ascending to God) between the time he saw Mary and when he would later see the disciples.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Jan 26, 2009 13:26:16 GMT -5
Heb 9:14-How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Excellent verse. I believe that Acts 1:9-11 shows Jesus in front of witnesses entering into the true Holy of Holies as the spotless Lamb and then Heb.9:24-28 summarizes His entering in and those witnesses waiting for His appearing again. However, His ascension after He talked to Mary was a mystery and I think it corresponds with Rev.12:5-11 and the war in heaven. Some years before I became a preterist, I covered the war in heaven in a tad more detail in the following article: www.angelfire.com/tn2/holyword/satan.htmlpreteristmouse Dale, I read your paper and found it very interesting and thought provoking. I am going to study it further because it opened up some researchable questions. P.S. To prove I read it, I found a typo you may or may not wish to correct. It is certainly no biggie and changes nothing. Search your text for "an~~" and you will see the typo. I would also like you to consider posting it a featured article on Endtimesmadness.com. |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 26, 2009 14:00:03 GMT -5
Dale, I read your paper and found it very interesting and thought provoking. I am going to study it further because it opened up some researchable questions. P.S. To prove I read it, I found a typo you may or may not wish to correct. It is certainly no biggie and changes nothing. Search your text for "an~~" and you will see the typo. I would also like you to consider posting it a featured article on Endtimesmadness.com. Thank you for the heads up on the typo, bro. I am pretty much computer illiterate so while I would be honored to have it on your site I have no earthly (or heavenly) idea how to do it.  preteristmouse PS: When are you ever gonna get it through that hard head of yours to just leave PT alone?  |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 26, 2009 14:03:03 GMT -5
Dale, I read your paper and found it very interesting and thought provoking. I am going to study it further because it opened up some researchable questions. P.S. To prove I read it, I found a typo you may or may not wish to correct. It is certainly no biggie and changes nothing. Search your text for "an~~" and you will see the typo. I would also like you to consider posting it a featured article on Endtimesmadness.com. Thank you for the heads up on the typo, bro. I am pretty much computer illiterate so while I would be honored to have it on your site I have no earthly (or heavenly) idea how to do it. preteristmouse What I had in mind was to put up your introduction on my site in its own page and then direct people to read the rest at your page. I have a "latest article" spot on my home page so people usually check that out first. Should I go ahead? |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 26, 2009 14:04:56 GMT -5
Go for it!  |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 30, 2009 12:53:01 GMT -5
I'm with Paul Kelly on this issue. I have trouble with a double ascension. Especially since it was the Acts 1:9 ascension that the angels remarked concerning His return...
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