Preterism

[Allyn]

In my studies on Preterism I have found a couple of things I still find hard to understand. Preterism allows for the idea that Satan after once having been bound for the figuritive 1000 years has been released and allowed to go into his little season. Preterists believe that this was all accomplished in the 1st century and Satan has since been cast into the Lake of Fire as per Revelation 20.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, the problem I am having is understanding if this means to the Preterist that Satan is no longer even in the picture since the first century? He is no longer tempting people and he no longer is the instigator of evil in the world.

Any assistance in understanding this would be helpful.

[Allyn]

Since posting this back in May I have come to a better understanding. I still would be interested in any other thoughts.

[Allyn]

Recently I have been in email correspondence with Walt Hibbard, a well known preterist. He, unlike me, is a calvinist and believes that God has a predetermined number of saved individuals and that someday that number will be reached. I find this to be in conflict with preterism in that we prets believe that the world will go on as long as the sun is in the sky. Since this is the case and basically we are on a world without end then if the number of total saved individuals has been reached then for the earth to continue would be contrary to the Gospel of Christ and the assurance that God's word does not return void. If the last person on earth to be saved has been born and died then what would the purpose for a continuation of all things?

[Once4all]

Aug 19, 2008 16:24:27 GMT -5 Allyn said:

...If the last person on earth to be saved has been born and died then what would the purpose for a continuation of all things?

Hi Allyn. That's a bit of a frightening thought. If true, all Christians are deceiving themselves and we just live and die and decompose now, just like I used to believe when I was an atheist. There is a person who posts at PlanetPreterist who believes that way. It's a depressing thing to believe, that the entire plan of God was completed in 70 AD, with no future way to salvation and eternal life for anyone after that.

If it were true, then that would certainly make God a respecter of persons, showing partiality to those believers alive only up to 70 AD.

[Allyn]

Hi Once4All,

Thank you for the reply.

I thought I better share the original Email that prompted the discussion between Walt and I. I received the following as a forward from Walt which is an email he had received -

Walt, As I am sitting here watching the Olympic opening ceremony, and what looks like millions of Chinese participating in the ceremony, I'm reminded that most of thebillions of Chinese, are worshipers of the false gods of Buddha and Confucius. These plus those of allother false religions and cults around the world including here in the US, are dead in trespasses and sins and are sadly going tohell. God is not sending any of them to hell, they are going there because of being dead in their sins, and the penalty for sin is death. We can't say God is sending them to hell, but rather we can say that God has decided to rescue some of them and us, and give eternallife in heaven - that's what election and predestination is all about. God does not have to rescue anyone, but because He is merciful beyond our understanding, He planned to do so for a certain number from every tribe and country on earth, before the world began. So we are blessed to be among that number who have and will have, received eternal life as an unmerited gift from God. So, if we look at election and predestination as God's plan for rescuing some from eternal damnation, rather than God's plan to send any to hell, then I believe we have the proper view and understanding of what these plans mean. Everyone of the billions of souls who have been created and will be created, have been given the gift of earthly life by our Creator God. For those who have also been elected and predestined, God has gone a step further, and gifted them with eternal life beyond this earthly life. Whether it's just an earthly life, or additionally eternal life, both are God's unmerited gifts to us.
bennie

And then my initial response to it -

Walt,

Election and predestination, I believe, is largely misunderstoodespecially in light of preterism. If preterism is the truth - I think it is - then election and predestination cannot occupy the sames pace in relation to the way this email below has defined some of it. If we truly live upon a world without end and a continual indefinite generation after generation then it is impossible that God has a pre-determined number of souls that He has predestined to be saved. Without end is just that and so is the Gospel of Christ. God Bless - Allyn Morton

And then Walt's response to me -

Hi Allyn,

I take a little bit different view on election and predestination from a preterist viewpoint than what your paragraph below suggests. Because the world is never going to end, and both the everlasting Gospel and the everlasting Covenant will continue during all this time, I don't see that this prevents God from having chosen a people for His Name from before the foundation of the world. He saw the whole picture, the beginning and all that it includes, and for reasons that He has not disclosed, chose from out of that vast multitude of humanity a select but infinite number of people to be His own. I don't think God views time in exactly the way that we do and hence there would not appear to me to be any conflict in this whole scenario. This is how I view it anyway. I understand all of this from the perspective of Reformed theology which of course should not be greatly modified in many respects by taking a preterist view. Maybe the problem is the idea of God chosing a definite number which would seem to go beyond the definite to the indefinite. But again this objection would not seem to present a problem to an infinitely sovereign God. It is good to once again sit at my computer and converse with other preterists. Lord bless! ~~Walt

[Once4all]

Thanks, Allyn, for the additional background. If it's basically a predestination issue, well, it was Israel (the group of people) who was predestined, not individual believers. We become part of that predestined group when we believe and are grafted into Israel, just as the "natural branches" can be cut off from Israel. That's what I believe about predestination.

[Allyn]

That's interesting. I never thought of it from that angle. Do you have any more comments telling what brought you to this? I am going to study into that concept.

[MoGrace2U]

Hi Allyn,
I recently got a copy of Steve Gregg's 4 Views of Revelation. It was interesting to be able to compare the different views of Revelation next to each other, in that each view does have something to contribute from the light they have. While I lean towards an Amil-Preterist view, I don't see that any of the 4 views is reading the prophecy correctly. And that is because we all fail to interpret the symbology from an accurate Hebraic perspective. Even the Jews don't read the OT right! Which is something I am becoming more aware of as I talk to Messianics...

If we look at the 4 views in the order of Preterist, Historicist, Amil/Spiritual and Futurist, considering that all have valid points to make, maybe someone someday will get it right!

Personally, I think the Futurist has the weakest case because his understanding of OT prophecy is so poor, because he thinks Israel has the preeminence rather than Christ. Therefore his understanding of the kingdom is askew, but on the other hand a future kingdom is coming.

The Historicist does see Christendom fairly clearly, but he too neglects prophecy and fails to understand what the 7 churches were being told because he allegorizes them. And the Amil tends to allegorize/spiritualize everything as if prophecy was not historically fulfilled. Always looking for an antitype without establishing the type leaves him without a valid foundation to work from.

Therefore, I think the Preterist view is the necessary place to start. But it ain't all over yet, and there are some things which will affect us - like Satan's little season. Which as you know, I believe is here.

Robin

[Allyn]

Hi Robin,

I have had Steve's book for a couple of years now and I do think he did a good job presenting the 4 views, however my studies have taken me further than he cared to go with it and I have been led to accept full-preterism because I think it is biblical. I have been sharing on Gregg's new discussion board ( www.theos.org )the biblical views of full-preterism and how the 1st church had been taught the all things fulfilled in their generation aspect. I believe we full-prets can make an unrefutable case for the position and strickly from the Bible. This, to me, is the only way we can be sure instead of opinions and speculations.

[MoGrace2U]

Allyn,
I know scripture says that all things written in the law, prophets and psalms about Him have been fulfilled in His first coming. But Revelation, while rooted in those things, does include some extras, which I haven't found in the OT. A 1,000 year kingdom and Satan's little season after that, in particular. Those do seem to speak of something in the future that was not fulfilled in that generation.

If you have addressed this already can you give me a link to the post?

[Allyn]

Hi Robin,

I haven't yet presented the Rev. text in the Epistles series. I may be doing so tonight or tomorrow.

[MoGrace2U]

I have been reading some on Ed Steven's site Preterist.org trying to understand the full preterist position. But I can't find where Satan's season is attributed to 70AD, though I have heard a bit about that before. Even so I don't agree with their position, that all things were fulfilled in 70 AD. It neglects the type which those events establish for us, that Rev 20:7 hints is yet in our future.

There is a prophecy that Judah would be given 40 years - as the days when they were delivered from Egypt, during which she would see marvelous things again from the Lord. (Micah 7:15) I think this is forcasting the 40 yrs between 30-70 AD. Similar forty year periods during which judgment was stayed while sin was brought to its fullness, were also given to Nineveh and Egypt. It is important to see how Israel's future compared with those of her enemies in the past, because I think this is what Revelation is dealing with - how she morphs into the enemy of God's saints. In Revelation apostate Israel is referred to as Babylon, Sodom & Egypt and then there is Gog & Magog to consider at the end of the 1,000 years - all ancient enemies whose judgments were prophecied and fulfilled, but which served as warnings to Israel herself should she follow their ways.

The 1,000's years period during which Satan is bound so the Church can grow, is where the preterist seems to think this is the Church taking over the whole earth. The problem here is that this is a kingdom which is also marked by leaven as the parables of the kingdom show. It is not a pure Church in the earth but one who becomes so corrupt that the fowls of the air lodge in her branches. And history shows us that is the case - much like Israel's own history... Yet God knows who are His and keeps a faithful remnant.

So I don't see how this 1,000's of years can be compared to the 40 years between the 1st and 2nd advent of the Lord at all. Instead it seems to be specifically denoting an unspecified long period of time which begins after 70AD and ends with Satan once again doing what he did to the Church at her beginning only perhaps more subtley than before. And Israel is his tool - which her being back in the land in apostacy fits for this season. The Hebrew Roots movement is the latest to infiltrate the churches with its deceptive Judaizing influence born of the doctrines of the Pharisees. And the result is carnality and blindness upon the OT as well as NT scriptures - by the same idolatry which deceived her.

There is one more fire to come from heaven to rid the Church of her enemies before her eternal kingdom is realized. Tares who have entered in bringing heresies that have divided her. It is that fire which prepares the way for the new heavens and earth which is coming (as it did for the new covenant). Just as also the fire that fell upon Jerusalem did in 70AD, ridding the Church of the beast's influence which was persecuting her. How long this last season of Satan may continue though we are not told - only that before Gog & Magog can deceive the very elect, the fire will come. Making the Church who enters the eternal kingdom at last one with her Lord.

Israel at war with her neighbors who have nuclear capability certainly seems to make her final demise imminent in our day...

[Allyn]

I would sure like to hear what some others have to say on your post, Robin. You always make such good sense and since I have not been a preterist as long as others, then I would like to see what they have to say.

[Michael J Loomis]

I'll get at it tonight. 8)

[Michael J Loomis]

Sept 22, 2008 14:45:56 GMT -5 Allyn said:

I would sure like to hear what some others have to say on your post, Robin. You always make such good sense and since I have not been a preterist as long as others, then I would like to see what they have to say.

Ok...I am going to attempt to be as concise as possible. And of course hope you guys all understand.

Ezekiel 36 speaks of a future time of restoration from the perspective of the Babylonian captivity. A time in which those that were scattered among the nations will be regathered and receive a new heart and the Spirit of God.(See Acts 2)

Ezekiel 37, in typical imagery found throughout Ezekiel basically states the same thing as Ezekiel 36. Restoration to God...=...Resurrection from the grave. This chapter was fulfilled and accomplished through the gospel and the giving of the new covenant in Christ.

Ezekiel 38:1-17 paints another visionary picture. About Gog and Magog, whom I would suggest were those enemies of God whom not only rejected Him...But Jesus and finally the Holy Spirit.(See blasphemy of Spirit in Matt. 12:31) I would also suggest that the Israel and Jerusalem spoken of in Ezekiel 38 & 39 as well as Revelation 20 are speaking of God's faithful remnant. Not a physical land or city. What was physical under the old covenant became spiritual in the new covenant.

Ezekiel 38:18-23 is pure apocalyptic imagery. Containing wrath...fire...earthquakes/shaking...mountains being thrown down...judgment...pestilence...bloodshed...flooding rain...great hailstones...fire and brimstone. Even civil war in verse 21, "I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord GOD. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother."

All of these things mind you are found in the bowl judgments found in Revelation 16, and confirmed rather literally to have taken place in the fall of Jerusalem by Josephus in, "The Jewish Wars."

And then in Ezekiel 38:23 we read, "Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD."

I would suggest that this is speaking of the same thing as, "and every eye will see Him."

And after the enemies of God are destroyed in Ezekiel 38:18-39:16 we see a so called "Triumphal festival." Which is the same thing we see in the latter half of Revelation 19.

Now...Here comes the confusing part. I want to suggest that Revelation 19 is followed chronologically by chapters Revelation 21 & 22. And that chapter 20 is a parenthetical statement describing the forty years from the beginning of Jesus earthly ministry to the fall of Jerusalem. Which is why I believe that the time spoken of in Revelation 20 was fulfilled in the first century. Satan was bound in Jesus earthly ministry...And I believe that Revelation 20:7-10 were fulfilled in and through the destruction of Jerusalem in fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 & 39. Which of course is followed by Ezekiel 40-48 which I see as a visionary prophetic commentary of Revelation 21 & 22.

I hope that this makes sense. I've spent a lot of time trying to work this out. But mostly as a free time study. Not something that I felt that I had to know to believe what I do. So don't be surprised if my thoughts don't become more refined over time.

And if you have any specific questions...Feel free to ask.

8) Pmike

[mellontes]

Robin, See within your original...

I have been reading some on Ed Steven's site Preterist.org trying to understand the full preterist position. But I can't find where Satan's season is attributed to 70AD, though I have heard a bit about that before. Does Luke 21:20 represent 70 AD or the final parousia? Even so I don't agree with their position, that all things were fulfilled in 70 AD. It neglects the type which those events establish for us Are you able to establish this “type” from Scripture for us?, that Rev 20:7 hints is yet in our future. Wouldn’t the destruction of Babylon (fulfilled) be the type for the destruction of Jerusalem (first century Babylon)? Therefore, you would have a type representing an anti-type which becomes a type for a future anti-type - I don't think so...

There is a prophecy that Judah would be given 40 years - as the days when they were delivered from Egypt, during which she would see marvelous things again from the Lord. (Micah 7:15) I think this is forecasting the 40 yrs between 30-70 AD. I wish to thank you for bringing this Scripture to mind!! Similar forty year periods during which judgment was stayed while sin was brought to its fullness, were also given to Nineveh and Egypt. It is important to see how Israel's future compared with those of her enemies in the past, because I think this is what Revelation is dealing with - how she morphs into the enemy of God's saints. Wouldn’t you agree that Israel’s past (first century) was at its worst since its conception? They had killed the prophets, had the Lord Jesus crucified, had killed The Lord’s servants and persecuted the church. In Revelation apostate Israel is referred to as Babylon, Sodom & Egypt Excellent! I wish my many dispensational friends could see this as easily as you see it. and then there is Gog & Magog to consider at the end of the 1,000 years - all ancient enemies whose judgments were prophesied and fulfilled, but which served as warnings to Israel herself should she follow their ways.

The 1,000's years period during which Satan is bound so the Church can grow, is where the preterist seems to think this is the Church taking over the whole earth. This would not be the full-preterist position as I know it, although I would allow the idea of people being added into the kingdom constantly and is not limited to any time period… The problem here is that this is a kingdom which is also marked by leaven as the parables of the kingdom show. It is not a pure Church in the earth but one who becomes so corrupt that the fowls of the air lodge in her branches. Here I disagree entirely. You have mixed two parables together (Mt 13:31-32 and Mt 13:33) and have come to a wrong conclusion for both. The idea is an ever increasing kingdom. The mustard seed (smallest) grows into a large tree and is so big it provides shelter and lodging for the birds of the air. Sure enough there are some tares involved but it is not speaking how the church is being taken over by evil or falseness. And history shows us that is the case - much like Israel's own history... Yet God knows who are His and keeps a faithful remnant.

So I don't see how this 1,000's of years can be compared to the 40 years between the 1st and 2nd advent of the Lord at all. Instead it seems to be specifically denoting an unspecified long period of time which begins after 70AD and ends with Satan once again doing what he did to the Church at her beginning only perhaps more subtly than before. You would be correct in saying that the role satan played in the time frame near 70 AD would have to be re-duplicated to fit the futurist paradigm. In fact, all the events of 70 AD would have to be re-duplicated…even the Jewish persecution against the church. I think you would be more correct in taking the 1,000 years as a specified period of time (without the “long”). 1,000 (at least the way I consider it) represents completeness or fullness such as God owning the cattle on a 1,000 hills. Does He not own the cattle on hill 1,001? Revelation is highly symbolic so we need to be careful here. And Israel is his tool - which her being back in the land in apostasy fits for this season. There is a big difference between the present nation of Israel and 70 AD Israel. As a result of her destruction back in the 1st century the genealogies were destroyed. No one knows who is a descendant of a Jew. Besides, the Jews are not a race. It is not a DNA thing. It is a religion. There is not one practicing Jew in the whole world simply because no temple exists where the old covenant system can be exercised. No day of atonement, etc. etc. etc. The Hebrew Roots movement is the latest to infiltrate the churches with its deceptive Judaizing influence born of the doctrines of the Pharisees. And the result is carnality and blindness upon the OT as well as NT scriptures - by the same idolatry which deceived her. I guess I am going to have to study up on the “Hebrew Roots” movement (sigh)…

There is one more fire to come from heaven to rid the Church of her enemies before her eternal kingdom is realized. Tares who have entered in bringing heresies that have divided her. Let's keep in mind that the true church has no tares. Local assemblies certainly do. It is that fire which prepares the way for the new heavens and earth which is coming (as it did for the new covenant). The new heavens and earth IS the new covenant. Many miss this vital concept. Old covenant versus new covenant, old Jerusalem versus new Jerusalem, old heaven and earth versus new heaven and earth, present Mosaic age versus Messianic age to come. As the time drew closer to 70 AD we learn through the letter to the Hebrews that the old covenant was in process of passing away (Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:8, Hebrews 10:9). The apostles expressed this as well (1 Peter 4:7, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 1 Corinthians 7:31) Just as also the fire that fell upon Jerusalem did in 70AD, ridding the Church of the beast's influence which was persecuting her. How long this last season of Satan may continue though we are not told - only that before Gog & Magog can deceive the very elect, the fire will come. Making the Church who enters the eternal kingdom at last one with her Lord. The most difficult thing to believe concerning Revelation's contents is:

Revelation 1:1 – The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [glow=red,2,300]things which must shortly come to pass[/glow]; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 - Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for [glow=red,2,300]the time is at hand.[/glow]

[The contents of Revelation]

Rev 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the [glow=red,2,300]things which must shortly be done.[/glow]

Rev 22:10 - And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for [glow=red,2,300]the time is at hand.[/glow]

What we understand regarding Revelation’s events must be held within the clear time frame of occurrence. Unless you are willing to step completely out of hermeneutics, “shortly” means shortly and “at hand” means at hand. All futurists believe these words to mean almost 2,000 years so far. This is longer than the entire Mosaic age which had entered its last days during the early church age. It was the end of the “age” of Judaism, not the end of the world that we are dealing with here. The 1,000 years cannot extend past the one and only parousia event of 70 AD.[/b]

Blessings, Mellontes

[Allyn]

Thank you Ted, this has really helped me.

[Once4all]

> Satan was bound in Jesus earthly ministry...

He tempted Jesus in the wilderness at the very start of Jesus' earthly ministry, then he was known to be "prowling around" again as written in 1 Peter 5:8 (unless you think this is not speaking of Satan, but rather human lust as the adversary, as described in James 1:14-15).

Is there any way the 1000 years that Satan is bound could represent the time of Jesus' earthly ministry? Then he is released after the crucifixion for a short time (until 70 A.D.)?

[mellontes]

Sept 23, 2008 17:29:32 GMT -5 Once4all said:

> Satan was bound in Jesus earthly ministry...

He tempted Jesus in the wilderness at the very start of Jesus' earthly ministry, then he was known to be "prowling around" again as written in 1 Peter 5:8 (unless you think this is not speaking of Satan, but rather human lust as the adversary, as described in James 1:14-15).

Is there any way the 1000 years that Satan is bound could represent the time of Jesus' earthly ministry? Then he is released after the crucifixion for a short time (until 70 A.D.)?

I believe Satan was bound during Christ's earthly ministry and unbound a certain number of years prior to all the activities of the Jewish revolt, wars and eventual destruction of Jerusalem. Exactly when this happened is difficult to determine. In his epistle to the Romans Paul said that satan was going to be crushed under their first century "feet" SHORTLY (Romans 16:20).

Satan seems to be active in Acts 5:3 and then nothing is mentioned until Acts 26:18 - although that is hardly an accurate indicator.

Blessings, Ted

[MoGrace2U]

Hi Ted,
I want to thank you for taking the time to go thru my post. You have brought up quite a few issues - is there one you would like to first discuss in particular?

The one that has intrigued me most recently is seeing how the Church becomes divided from apostate Israel in Revelation. The true saints are the believers in Christ in Revelation. It is probably the most difficult thing to hold in mind because we tend to think of ethnic Israel as Israel too because they have the same name.

If I am correct in seeing that apostate Israel morphed into her enemies, then understanding who Gog and Magog is should be clearer. Israel came out of the nations in recent times as though she were now a Gentile. This makes ethnic Israel represented by the "nations" and the Church as the saints.

I think Ezekiel 38-39 is in line with Dan 11 as it tells about the wars that would ensue after the return from Babylon. But Ezekiel writes during the captivity in a more general way than Daniel who is already at its end. For Daniel many of the previous prophecies are beginning to be fulfilled.

Ed Stevens has an interesting article about the beast of Rev 13 being Jewish rather Roman. And I think he has a point but there is also a comparison being made to Daniel's beast - who I do believe is Rome. One does become like his lover sooner or later.

The Jewish beast is compared to the previous 3 beasts of Daniel: Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece (lion, bear & leopard). That leaves out the 4th beast of Rome who Daniel specifically says is DIVERSE from the other 3. Revelation is certainly telling us something about the beast who rises from the seas that is not diverse from the 3 but like them. In Daniel he interchanges seas and earth for the 4th beast. If seas is the nations and earth is the land of Israel then I think this is the beginning of the morphing we are to see.

The beast of Rev 13 I think is the whole apostate Jewish system, whereas the Harlot called Babylon is the priesthood in particular. Her clothing describes her. She does ride the beast of Rome as Daniel describes him, but she also is the mover of the Sanhedrin who brought the Lord to trial. The false prophet represents the scribes and Pharisees who utilize the law to turn the people to idolatry. Not just in Cesaer worship which was the notable thing, but also to look to Israel herself as the voice of God in the earth. These Pharisees convinced the people that they were deploying God's will in persecuting the saints. This is the irony involved in who it was that God destroyed. And it is also noteworthy that modern Israel sees herself as the Redeemer of the world who suffers for their sins (Isa 53). Talk about a usurper...

There is much to be gleaned in finding where this stuff was spoken about in the OT for sure. As these prophetic things tend to move forward in time, with one establishing the other.

[MoGrace2U]

Sept 23, 2008 20:14:14 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

Sept 23, 2008 17:29:32 GMT -5 Once4all said:

> Satan was bound in Jesus earthly ministry...

He tempted Jesus in the wilderness at the very start of Jesus' earthly ministry, then he was known to be "prowling around" again as written in 1 Peter 5:8 (unless you think this is not speaking of Satan, but rather human lust as the adversary, as described in James 1:14-15).

Is there any way the 1000 years that Satan is bound could represent the time of Jesus' earthly ministry? Then he is released after the crucifixion for a short time (until 70 A.D.)?

I believe Satan was bound during Christ's earthly ministry and unbound a certain number of years prior to all the activities of the Jewish revolt, wars and eventual destruction of Jerusalem. Exactly when this happened is difficult to determine. In his epistle to the Romans Paul said that satan was going to be crushed under their first century "feet" SHORTLY (Romans 16:20).

Satan seems to be active in Acts 5:3 and then nothing is mentioned until Acts 26:18 - although that is hardly an accurate indicator.

Blessings, Ted

Though we know the Lord was binding Satan during His ministry, he was still quite active during the inter-advent period - earth bound perhaps is how we should see him. That he had no access to heaven to accuse the saints is key to what his binding entails. As well as his inability to put a stop to the spread of the gospel. This earth is a graveyard which is another understanding for the bottomless pit or abussos. So if the accuser of the brethren had been cast down at the cross and bound to only dwell in the earthly realm, then I think his activity during those 40 years can be explained. Which puts his binding in chains in Rev 20 pertinent to the whole Christian age which follows 70 AD until he is released that is.

If Satanic deception has not dramatically increased since the late 1800's with dispensationalism, then what else would explain the heresies that have risen in preparation for Israel's return to the land in apostacy? Somebody's up to something!

[mellontes]

Sept 23, 2008 22:44:43 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

If Satanic deception has not dramatically increased since the late 1800's with dispensationalism, then what else would explain the heresies that have risen in preparation for Israel's return to the land in apostacy? Somebody's up to something!

Robin, you seem to know this stuff much better than me. My impression of the beast is Roman, but definitely NOT the church of Rome. The false prophet is unquestionalby Jewish. These two had worked hand-in-hand in persecution of the church and the crucixion of the Lord Jesus. The unbelieving Jews were always the instigators until certain Roman leaders "caught on." (Nero)

The 1800's were amazing times (Mormonism, 7th Day Adventist and Jehovah Witnesses). My dispensational acquaintances don't like it when I include their religious system with these other groups...

Don't forget Romans 16:20 and the time frame of occurrence for ALL the events of Revelation. As for satanic depression, I think it is due to a wrong view of sin. We are too civilized to understand the miserable depths man is able to sink to. If a parent murders their infant son, is it to be attributed to satan or sin? If America decides to fly planes into their own structures, is it to be attributed to sin (greed) or satan? Sin is rebellion to God - whatever it takes.

The time statements solve the issue for me. Satan's "short time" is over. I know Ed Stevens is not convinced of that.

As for Revelation I am certainly no expert and I have much to learn myself...

Blessings, Ted