|
|
Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 22, 2008 19:09:20 GMT -5
Good evening everyone,
Do you believe in the Trinity? Or don't you?
I'm one of those who haven't really studied the issue for many years. Yet while reading a few posts over at CARM there were some that mentioned that they did not think it was true. This was a few weeks ago so I honestly can't remember the thread that I was reading. And I haven't noticed anything at this forum which talks about that topic.
Is there anybody on this forum that does not believe in the Trinity and can you please point me to a study or give us your own which convinced you that the doctrine was wrong.
Thank you
Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Dec 22, 2008 19:12:07 GMT -5
Good evening everyone, Do you believe in the Trinity? Or don't you? I'm one of those who haven't really studied the issue for many years. Yet while reading a few posts over at CARM there were some that mentioned that they did not think it was true. This was a few weeks ago so I honestly can't remember the thread that I was reading. And I haven't noticed anything at this forum which talks about that topic. Is there anybody on this forum that does not believe in the Trinity and can you please point me to a study or give us your own which convinced you that the doctrine was wrong. Thank you Steve I absolutely do believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I may not understand how three cna be one but I do with no apologies believe. I believe the Holy Scriptures make them known to us. |
|
|
|
Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 22, 2008 21:07:29 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
Thanks. The study that I do remember was between Dr. Walter Martin and a spokesperson from the Jesus Only group, or something like that. And that was about 25 years ago. Other than that it wasn't until reading some posts from the other forum that that subject came up. Just thought I'd inquire a little.
|
|
|
|
Post by mtymousie on Dec 23, 2008 1:03:57 GMT -5
I like to use this very primitive analogy in my poor efforts to define the "Trinity": There are three branches to our government - the executive, the legislative, and the judicial. All three make up the one entity, the United States government.
I cannot fathom the depths of how the Godhead operates. I just firmly believe that It, more appropriately HE, exists.
preteristmouse
|
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Dec 23, 2008 11:09:41 GMT -5
Steve, I am one here who does not believe that the Trinity doctrine is true. I used to.... until I studied it. There was a debate at CARM that I followed as it was being conducted that helped convince me. The written debate was back in 2006, but was re-posted earlier this year. Here is a link to it: www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=101192Plus, I have some articles that I've written about the topic on my blog site, here: web.cloudbow.com/blog/The person who presented the biblical unitarian position in the debate at CARM also runs a discussion group that I'm a member of. In fact, a trinitarian just joined it for the purpose of asking questions and discussing non-trinitarian belief. That discussion has not yet gotten started, so now would be a good time to join the group. You can join here: groups.yahoo.com/group/4_OneGod/Just as here at Preterist Voice, the discussions at 4_OneGod strive to avoid the kind of mean-spirited attitudes that often prevail at CARM. May God bless your search for truth. Bev |
|
|
|
Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 23, 2008 15:17:04 GMT -5
Thanks Bev. I'll check it out.
Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul Kelly on Dec 27, 2008 14:56:17 GMT -5
Hi Bev, Nice Link. I haven't read this in ages. Thanks for posting it. I do like Danny Dixon's approach  Paul |
|
|
|
Post by john14and9 on Jan 24, 2009 0:23:36 GMT -5
Good evening everyone, Do you believe in the Trinity? Or don't you? I'm one of those who haven't really studied the issue for many years. Yet while reading a few posts over at CARM there were some that mentioned that they did not think it was true. This was a few weeks ago so I honestly can't remember the thread that I was reading. And I haven't noticed anything at this forum which talks about that topic. Is there anybody on this forum that does not believe in the Trinity and can you please point me to a study or give us your own which convinced you that the doctrine was wrong. Thank you Steve I do not believe the Trinity is a true biblical doctrine either.. All I can truly say is Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. It has to be revealed to you...!! |
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Jan 24, 2009 7:29:26 GMT -5
Good evening everyone, Do you believe in the Trinity? Or don't you? I'm one of those who haven't really studied the issue for many years. Yet while reading a few posts over at CARM there were some that mentioned that they did not think it was true. This was a few weeks ago so I honestly can't remember the thread that I was reading. And I haven't noticed anything at this forum which talks about that topic. Is there anybody on this forum that does not believe in the Trinity and can you please point me to a study or give us your own which convinced you that the doctrine was wrong. Thank you Steve I do not believe the Trinity is a true biblical doctrine either.. All I can truly say is Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. It has to be revealed to you...!! I'm not entirely sure of what you mean here. Jesus said that he, the Son, will reveal Him (God the Father!) He does not say that he will reveal it (some man-made doctrine, such as the Trinity). So when you say "it" has to be revealed to you, what are you talking about? (BTW, I think Allyn prefers this discussion be restricted to the "Jesus is God?" forum.) |
|
|
|
Post by john14and9 on Jan 25, 2009 0:30:03 GMT -5
I do not believe the Trinity is a true biblical doctrine either.. All I can truly say is Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. It has to be revealed to you...!! I'm not entirely sure of what you mean here. Jesus said that he, the Son, will reveal Him (God the Father!) He does not say that he will reveal it (some man-made doctrine, such as the Trinity). So when you say "it" has to be revealed to you, what are you talking about? (BTW, I think Allyn prefers this discussion be restricted to the "Jesus is God?" forum.) The Godhead has to be revealed to a person.. Jesus claimed to be God but just like today people do not read between the lines and really dig for the true meaning of the scriptures..for example..John 14:9 People cannot read this verse and believe what it is saying.. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. WOW..that is so powerful..Jesus plainly said..the Father is IN ME! This goes with many scriptures..such as 1 Tim 3:16..God was MANIFESTED in flesh! Here is another simple yet powerful scripture that many people stumble over..please look at this real close.. John 12:44-Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. Wow..when we believe on Jesus..we are not believing on him but who we are actually believing on is the one living on the inside..yet.. the One who is invisible yet residing within that body of flesh...{God -Jehovah} Jesus is the only way..we must go through him [flesh] to access the One who our sin offended....the flesh was a bridge between sinful man and a Holy God! God so loved the world..HE GAVE..He came himself!..how?..He is a Spirit..how could he come to us?..through the flesh body that He created in the fulness of time made of a woman made under the law..[Gal 4:4.2 Cor 5:19] I honestly believe the writers of the NT had to break down the language for us to truly understand God..I do not believe they were trying to teach a Triune Godhead..but rather explain God and How He himself redeemed us... I believe if we would read the scriptures and every time the scripture mentions [God} do not think of Him as a "separate person" or even the first person in a Godhead..but think of Him as SPIRIT..and every time we read where the scripture mentions Jesus or the Son...think of FLESH..not the 2nd person and so on..because truly this is how redemption came..It was the One God of the OT who is Spirit put on flesh in the fulness of time..and came to be our only Savior..We truly do not recognize the God who saved us and all the trouble He personally went through..I realize this goes against mainline Christianity..and not everyone will agree..but may we be honest with scripture..and may we keep this thought in mind...if we are not willing to be wrong..we can never be right! |
|
|
|
Post by Paul Kelly on Jan 25, 2009 7:04:02 GMT -5
Jesus claimed to be God but just like today people do not read between the lines and really dig for the true meaning of the scriptures..for example..John 14:9 Hi John, I don't have much time at the moment, but let me try a few things. Firstly, you admit to having to "read between the lines" to find the "truth" of the bible. Why? Are the lines themselves not good enough? Can God not communicate clearly to us? It's reading between the lines and ignoring the actual lines themselves which leads to error. The lines say: John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ". 1Cor 8:6 - "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him". Why do we need to read between the lines to understand when God has revealed to us in perfect clarity? There are no ambiguities in the above scriptures. But this is a scripture that if taken literally suggests modalism not trinitarianism? Are you a modalist? Additionally, scripture speaks of Christ being in us too. Does that prove that we're God also? 2Co 13:5 - "Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate". I've provided some thoughts here to show that Jesus is not Jehovah livebytr.proboards85.com/index.cgi?board=jesusisgod&action=display&thread=121&page=5Dinner time....stay safe. Paul |
|
|
|
Post by john14and9 on Jan 26, 2009 22:18:03 GMT -5
Jesus claimed to be God but just like today people do not read between the lines and really dig for the true meaning of the scriptures..for example..John 14:9 Hi John, I don't have much time at the moment, but let me try a few things. Firstly, you admit to having to "read between the lines" to find the "truth" of the bible. Why? Are the lines themselves not good enough? Can God not communicate clearly to us? It's reading between the lines and ignoring the actual lines themselves which leads to error. The lines say: When I read this verse..I am reading what Jesus is truly saying here.. That people might know YOU..{Jehovah God]..and Jesus Christ..whom you sent..Jesus is simply pointing to the very one who was on the inside of him..none other than Jehovah God.. John 12:44 fits real nice here... Paul is saying..there is One God [who is] the Father.. Mal 2:10-hath we not One Father? and one Lord Jesus Christ..[the manifestation of Jehovah God] Jesus did not come straight out and say..I AM GOD!..yet some recognized what He was claiming..at one point they wanted to stone him..thou being a man..makest thyself..GOD!.. So yes..we have to "read between"the lines..Jesus spoke in parables..without a parable spake He not..yet Jesus went on to say..some things were hidden..more could be said here.. No..I am a Christian who believes in the Bible...lol..a Biblist! Paul..you mean there is not one single scripture in the Bible that is literal?..I would disagree..there are plenty of them..yet most of them I would say has a spiritual meaning to them... Course not silly wabbitt..it means you have been BORN AGAIN and it is Christ in you..yet Paul said..we are the TEMPLE of God..this should tell us..we have God living in us! Paul..I agree..Jesus is not Jehovah..rather I believe Jesus was Jehovah INside the flesh!..the Body was the manifestation of the One invisible God..God could not redeem us as He is..He needed a body to shed blood with {acts 20:28,1 Tim 3:16,2 cor 5:19,Gal 4;4] John |
|
|
|
Post by mtymousie on Jan 27, 2009 4:41:36 GMT -5
Paul..I agree..Jesus is not Jehovah..rather I believe Jesus was Jehovah INside the flesh!..the Body was the manifestation of the One invisible God..God could not redeem us as He is..He needed a body to shed blood with {acts 20:28,1 Tim 3:16,2 cor 5:19,Gal 4;4]John Amen! Dale aka preteristmouse |
|
|
|
Post by Paul Kelly on Jan 27, 2009 7:27:13 GMT -5
Hi John, I'm going to start with your last paragraph as it seems to sum up nicely where you're coming from. Paul..I agree..Jesus is not Jehovah”. This is an interesting admission. This is not in line with the orthodox view of the trinity. The orthodox view is that Jesus is Jehovah. Not that it matters to me. I'm a heretic on two counts...being a non-trinitarian and a preterist....lol ;-) Just to try and get all this clear in my mind, you're not a trinitarian...right? And you definitely don't believe that Jesus is Jehovah, or God .....right? Yes or no answers would be helpful. Jehovah God is inside of him yet he's not Jehovah God? So who is Jesus in your view? An empty shell, devoid of personality, that God somehow inhabits? Does this human Jesus have a personality? If so, then whose personality does he have? The Father? The Son? The Holy Spirit? All three? Or does he have a human personality all of his own? Okay, so we agree that Jesus isn't Jehovah and that the One God is the Father. Great stuff. The scripture Jesus brings up in defence of this point is interesting. Joh 10:34-36 - “ Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your* Law, 'I said, you are gods? "If He called those ones "gods" to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture is not able to be broken), [why of] whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, do you* say, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am God's Son?' This is nothing to do with Jesus being God and everything to do with him being God's Son. The above is a quote from Psalm 82:6, which relates to God's then representatives on earth. Not God himself. This is the category in which Jesus places himself - that of God's representative. And yes the Father and Jesus are “one”. Just as we are one with the Father too: Joh 17:21 - “That they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me”. Yes, but this isn't a parable. He's speaking in plain language. I'll concur then when we're looking at a parable there's a degree of deeper thinking involved. But this isn't one of those occasions. Lol...fair enough. You're not a CARM poster are you? I recall a guy over there having a signature that says something like “I take the biblist position”...or some such. I would disagree with that too. That's not what I said. What I said was, if you take John 14:9 literally, then it suggests modalism not trinitarianism. Yes, but my point is, this doesn't make us God either. You seemed to be suggesting that the Father being in Jesus was significant as to his deity (though judging by your past few posts I'm not so sure you were suggesting that now). The point I'm making is that in scripture Christ is spoken of as being in us too. But this doesn't seem to have the same mystical significance you seem to be suggesting it has when the same's said of Christ and the Father. Paul |
|
