Heresy

[stephenpatrick]

Good afternoon,

First I'm going to give a definition of the word heresy, then I'll ask my question.

From Wikipedia.

In Christianity, heresy is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox.


This definition and article is rather long so I'll just give the link to it. It is from Dr. Randall Otto, Preterism and the Question of Heresy. www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2000_otto_question-of-heresy.html


Mellontes writes in a great post defending preterism over at The Narrow Path forum,
http://www.theos.orgforumviewtopic.phpf=16&t=2378&p=31714&hilit=mellontes#p31714

Futurists would have us believe that every generation since Calvary is to watch and to wait for Christ to come back. This they call imminence. What it really means is that God had no clue when Christ was going to appear the second time!!! This is blasphemy. The appointed time has come and gone folks! Do you really believe that God via inspiration of every single apostle told his first century believers to watch and wait for Him if He wasn't going to be coming for at least 2,000 years? This is GRAND DECEPTION. My SAviour has nothing to do with deceit or guile. The futurists believe otherwise just so they can support their own presuppostions. This is the real heresy folks, but because they are in the majority (big deal - so are the atheists), we, full preterists, who believe that God came to the generation He said He was coming to, are the ones called heretics. Don't figure...

My question: Is a real heretic outside the Christian faith? If the preterist is found to be wrong (more and more I am believing the preterist is correct) then are they in line to be eternally dammed. The futurist claims to believe in the words of Jesus, but rejects the clear meaning of the time statements in the NT to have them mean some unknowable time in the future. If they are wrong does that make them the heretic, and dammed for eternity. They continually point to the verses with reference to Hymenaeus who, with Philetus, is said to "have wandered away from the truth" by contending that "the resurrection has already taken place" (2 Tim. 2:17-18). I assume that Paul would have considered them to be not saved. (Lets stay away from the views on the resurrection, I understand both sides and agree to the preterist viewpoint)

Does anybody here believe that these are issues with regard to our having our sins forgiven and being saved?

Thanks. Appreciate any help on the answer.
Steve

[Allyn]

Hi Steve,

Good question and Heresy to me is narrowed by only four things in my opinion and that is that heresy for a believer is (and it must be a believer) 1) to deny the Resurrection of Christ. 2) to deny the diety of Christ. 3) to deny the sanctification of the purpose of Christs death on the cross and 4) to teach other than only through Christ can one be saved.

You may ask how can a believer not believe those things but heresy cannot fall on one outside of the church but only on one within the body. For one to continue in heresy as defined subjects that person to departing from the faith.

[Sower]

Hi Steve,

Excellent question! I would like to commend Mellontes on his post defending preterism, over at "The Narrow Path Forum."

I agree with Allyn's opinion.

My personal opinion, is the scripture must define a Christian "heretic." Otherwise, every denomination (and brethren), that disagree will unfairly characterize the other as a heretic.

Paul was thought to be preaching heresy by the religious leaders of his day, and we know how wrong they were.

According to Roman Catholicism Augustine was a "heretic" because he preached justification by faith.
However, based upon the scripture (Romans 5), Augustine was correct.

I have read a book, "FOXE"S Book of Martyrs," and was shocked and saddened at the many christians branded as "heretics" and martyred for their faith by none other than fellow brethren.

Sincere men make mistakes, the scripture does not.

Lady Sower~

[mtymousie]

Dec 12, 2008 14:16:18 GMT -5 stephenpatrick said:

Does anybody here believe that these are issues with regard to our having our sins forgiven and being saved?

I am convinced that a person's sincere view of eschatology has absolutely nothing to do with his birth into Christ. However, if a person goes so far as to condemn another because of their sincere view of eschatology, then he is probably putting his own soul in danger.

Just my take,
Dale
aka
preteristmouse

[MoGrace2U]

I was looking for a place to post and this topic seems relevant though I intend to stray from the OP.

I had a sort of epiphany this morning as I was looking at the verses the anti-prets like to use to support their literal dead body rising from the grave resurrection.

Has anyone ever noticed that Jesus' interactions with the Jewish rulers seemed designed to provoke them? Now I think this had something to do with accelerating their desire to crucify Him in order to bring the cross on time (70 wks of Daniel...). But I think it may be more than that.

Israel had put their hope in the promises of God expecting earthly blessings when Messiah arrived - which the old covenant certainly did spell out that way for an earthly kingdom for them.

Their kings, the kingdom, the temple - were all God given temporal things in which Israel hoped - and which she also had to reject so those things could be taken away, and a new thing brought in instead.

By rejecting Jesus as Messiah and King - after He rode into Jerusalem in fulfillment of the prophecy; the Davidic covenant was broken. By crucifying Him, they gave up all hope for an earthly King and kingdom coming from David's seed.

When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead it was a testimony given in particular to those men - which in turn they wanted to murder him. That was the picture of the dead body raised back up to earthly life that they hoped in for the resurrection - and they rejected it.

I think Jesus was methodically working their rejection of all the prophecies related to Him to make way for the spiritual things that would fulfill all those shadows.

The fact that when Jesus rose from the dead and only showed Himself openly to the disciples - who also saw Him ascend, is also pertinent in that Israel was NOT given the proof of the type of resurrection that we will enjoy!

So how does this relate to heresy - who are the ones trying to hold to the OC earthly blessings today?

FUTURISTS!

[stephenpatrick]

Jul 29, 2009 21:35:07 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

I think Jesus was methodically working their rejection of all the prophecies related to Him to make way for the spiritual things that would fulfill all those shadows.

Hi Robin,

Interesting thoughts. You've given me some homework to do for the next few weeks.

Steve

[adhitthana]

If a group of men got together in the 4th century or the 5th or 6th or any century and fought and decided that they thought this or that was heretical then what has that got to do with me.

I can still wake in the morning, seek God, hand my life over to Him, listen for His direction and live alife pleasing to Him.

Dec 12, 2008 14:16:18 GMT -5 stephenpatrick said:

My question: Is a real heretic outside the Christian faith?

The real text according to 1 John is whether we love. If we do we walk in the light. That simple. Are we touched by and touching God?

The verses against those who claimed Christ had not come in the flesh are against those wishig to stay in thre old age/covenant/world. those who refused to move forward with God.
Like Peter, in matthew 16, they had in mind the things of man, not God

[MoGrace2U]

Hi Adhittana,
That is how I see it too, cause what God has planned for us is way beyond what we can see, hear or imagine here. Sounds like that unseen, unknown heavenly realm to me!

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

[adhitthana]

Jul 30, 2009 21:11:08 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Hi Adhittana,
That is how I see it too, cause what God has planned for us is way beyond what we can see, hear or imagine here. Sounds like that unseen, unknown heavenly realm to me!

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

You know it amazing how many times we are told that it is the way we are or live that is the true reckoner of whether we are a true christian.
Over and over and over and over this message is in the gospels, pauls writings Johns letters etc...
Yet one or two scriptures about heresy are trumpeted by religious people in order to condemn others.

It is easy to mentally accept a doctrine, very different to forgive and love and allow our hearts to be changed.