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Post by Once4all on Dec 12, 2008 9:19:52 GMT -5
I'm still relatively new to preterist belief and I know that there are differences among believers even within the scope of full preterism. Therefore, I'd like the opinion of those on this forum regarding the beliefs and ministry of Ed Stevens and the International Preterist Association. Mostly, I'm interested in the DVD set of preterist teachings that he has for sale. Are Mr. Stevens' teachings in line with what most of you believe? I'm thinking of purchasing the DVDs but don't want to drop the $40 just to find out his teachings are weird or something. Any opinions? And do you have other or better DVD preterist resources you can recommend? Here's a link to information about the DVDs at his website: www.preterist.org/currentactivities.asp#Fulfilled_Prophecy_SeminarThanks. Bev |
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Post by Sower on Dec 12, 2008 15:02:00 GMT -5
Hi Once4all,
Mr. Stevens is a full preterist! I have his book, "Expectations Demand A First Century Rapture." and some of his DVD's, which I am pleased to have.
I find his resources as biblically sound and highly recommend them. I venture to say you will not be disappointed.
If you get the DVD's, let me know what you think about them!
Blessings,
Lady Sower~
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Post by Allyn on Dec 12, 2008 18:43:07 GMT -5
Hi Sister Once,
I have been thinking about getting the DVD. It sounds interesting. I have Ed Stevens' Expectations Demand a First Century Rapture but that is about all I know about him. Our Ted has a different take on that time and so I am doing a study right now.
If you are interested I would be happy to send you my copy for as long as you want it (within the same year). You can get it online for a reasonable price.
Actually I would like for Ted to share his view with us if he should happen to read this.
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Post by mellontes on Dec 13, 2008 9:32:13 GMT -5
Ed is a full-preterist in that he believes all prophecy has been fulfilled. This is good.
However, there are a few differences (as there are among all preterists it seems) in what he believes.
I, for one, do not believe that the church was taken to heaven in 70 AD - a physical rapture emulating the dispensationalist's view but in a different time frame. It seems that for only 40 years the church is taught how to organize, teach, train, etc. and then at its most important moment, its consummation/manifestion/vindication at the destruction of the old covenant it is simply taken away off of the earth. I can't buy that... Why bother to flee to the mountains? What about the Christians in Pella and the Dead Sea Scrolls. What about the possibility of John living past 70 AD? Too many questions for me.
I also do not hold to an individual spiritual body resurrection at death. We have already been resurrected in Christ. When we die we go to be with the Lord. Period. All this emphasis on the physical bodily resurrection of Christ has caused much problem in the area of Christians receiving some kind of body.
I believe in a corporate resurrection body that has NOTHING to do with the human physical shell that our spirit inhabits...
Now having said all that... Ed's DVD probably doesn't go into those sort of things, but rather just deals with the all prophecy being fulfilled aspect.
I have purchased many hundreds of dollars worth of books from the IPA and will probably continue to do so (unless I can find them cheaper).
You can always write to him (preterist1@preterist.org) to get a further synopsis to see if he addresses the rapture or resurrection...
I get the idea that the conference he was just at in Ohio was tailor-made for beginning preterists or those considering the view. I can't imagine he would have gone into the more controversial topics I just mentioned, but I wasn't there. I will contact someone who was and see if I can get further answers.
Blessings, Ted
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Post by Once4all on Dec 13, 2008 16:52:17 GMT -5
Sower, Allyn, and Ted - Thanks so much for your thoughtful replies. Allyn, that was a very kind offer to let me borrow your materials. I will pass on it for now, but if I change my mind I will let you know! Ted, thanks for those explanations. I might agree with you a bit on those things you mentioned, but I'd have to study the differences side-by-side to really say for certain.
Ted, this is one of the things said in the email I received about the 4 DVD set:
"... Understanding this cosmology will help you see why the collective body view of the resurrection
that was popularized by Max King is out of sync with Biblical eschatology."
Is Max King's view the same as your belief?
The "this cosmology" in the above quote is talking about the discussion on the DVD regarding the heavens and earth. I'm not entirely sure that Stevens' view of this is the same as what I've seen all of you here and on CARM say about it. Allow me to quote another description about the DVD lessons:
"The second lesson on the Heavens and Earth (cosmology) is totally new. It
used flip charts to explain the Biblical concept of a three-layered Heavens,
Earth, and Under the Earth. The Bible in both the Old and New Testaments
repeatedly refers to these three divisions of the Biblical World (including
what is in both the Unseen and Seen realms). This is a unique presentation
on Biblical Cosmology, how the Heavens (the Unseen realm) and the Earth (the
Seen realm) relate to each other in regard to redemptive history and
eschatology. If you are like me, you have never heard anything like this
before. You will finally understand what all the ³Heavens and Earth²
language is talking about, including the ³world above,² the Underworld, and
the New Heavens and Earth. We discuss the crushing of Satan in the Air above
(unseen realm), the twofold division of Hades, the seven divisions of the
heavens above (in the unseen realm), and the ascent/descent language in
reference to the Parousia and the Resurrection events."
Does that jive with how you three believe regarding the heavens and earth?
Thanks again for answering my questions!
Bev
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Post by mellontes on Dec 13, 2008 17:53:49 GMT -5
Sower, Allyn, and Ted - Thanks so much for your thoughtful replies. Allyn, that was a very kind offer to let me borrow your materials. I will pass on it for now, but if I change my mind I will let you know! Ted, thanks for those explanations. I might agree with you a bit on those things you mentioned, but I'd have to study the differences side-by-side to really say for certain. Ted, this is one of the things said in the email I received about the 4 DVD set: "... Understanding this cosmology will help you see why the collective body view of the resurrection that was popularized by Max King is out of sync with Biblical eschatology." Is Max King's view the same as your belief? The "this cosmology" in the above quote is talking about the discussion on the DVD regarding the heavens and earth. I'm not entirely sure that Stevens' view of this is the same as what I've seen all of you here and on CARM say about it. Allow me to quote another description about the DVD lessons: "The second lesson on the Heavens and Earth (cosmology) is totally new. It used flip charts to explain the Biblical concept of a three-layered Heavens, Earth, and Under the Earth. The Bible in both the Old and New Testaments repeatedly refers to these three divisions of the Biblical World (including what is in both the Unseen and Seen realms). This is a unique presentation on Biblical Cosmology, how the Heavens (the Unseen realm) and the Earth (the Seen realm) relate to each other in regard to redemptive history and eschatology. If you are like me, you have never heard anything like this before. You will finally understand what all the ³Heavens and Earth² language is talking about, including the ³world above,² the Underworld, and the New Heavens and Earth. We discuss the crushing of Satan in the Air above (unseen realm), the twofold division of Hades, the seven divisions of the heavens above (in the unseen realm), and the ascent/descent language in reference to the Parousia and the Resurrection events." Does that jive with how you three believe regarding the heavens and earth? Thanks again for answering my questions! Bev Can you give me the exact title and/or link to the DVD set you are interested in purchasing? I may have it mixed up with some other stuff... It never hurts to have another view! In fact, when I am trying to learn something I try to read up on as much material OPPOSED to the view I am favoring. I am not sure what Ed means by his three layered heavens and earth stuff... and yes, he is opposed to a corporate resurrection just as he is opposed to anyone else but John writing the fourth Gospel (another topic). May I suggest www.bereanbiblechurch.org (David Curtis) material. He has a tremendous amount of stuff available for free download on MP3's. I download all his stuff and burn it to CD's. Also may I recommend Kelly Birks as well. He has a 36 CD set on Revelation at: firstcenturymind.com/index.php?option=com_sermonspeaker&task=singleseries&id=10001&Itemid=28He has a 20 CD set on the second coming at: firstcenturymind.com/index.php?option=com_sermonspeaker&task=singleseries&id=10000&Itemid=28However, I don't believe they are available for download... P.S. - I have not read a single work by Max King, but I do believe his resurrection view would be similar to mine. Ted |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 14, 2008 0:37:54 GMT -5
Can you give me the exact title and/or link to the DVD set you are interested in purchasing? I may have it mixed up with some other stuff... It never hurts to have another view! In fact, when I am trying to learn something I try to read up on as much material OPPOSED to the view I am favoring. I am not sure what Ed means by his three layered heavens and earth stuff... and yes, he is opposed to a corporate resurrection just as he is opposed to anyone else but John writing the fourth Gospel (another topic). May I suggest www.bereanbiblechurch.org (David Curtis) material. He has a tremendous amount of stuff available for free download on MP3's. I download all his stuff and burn it to CD's. Also may I recommend Kelly Birks as well. He has a 36 CD set on Revelation at: firstcenturymind.com/index.php?option=com_sermonspeaker&task=singleseries&id=10001&Itemid=28He has a 20 CD set on the second coming at: firstcenturymind.com/index.php?option=com_sermonspeaker&task=singleseries&id=10000&Itemid=28However, I don't believe they are available for download... P.S. - I have not read a single work by Max King, but I do believe his resurrection view would be similar to mine. Ted Ted, here's the link to Ed Stevens' DVD set. After the page loads, scroll down just a bit to where it says "Introductory Promotion: (until January 1, 2009)" www.preterist.org/currentactivities.asp#Fulfilled_Prophecy_SeminarI use the same method and read opposition material, too. Sometimes doing so reinforces my own view, and sometimes it winds up changing my view. That's what happened when I studied the two different topics of preterism (which was the opposing view at the time) and the Trinity (which was the view I currently held, until I decided to prove it against the opposing views). It seems the most widely-held views often turn out to be the incorrect ones when they are investigated without bias. Thanks for the other recommendations! Bev |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 14, 2008 10:07:26 GMT -5
Ted, here's the link to Ed Stevens' DVD set. After the page loads, scroll down just a bit to where it says "Introductory Promotion: (until January 1, 2009)" www.preterist.org/currentactivities.asp#Fulfilled_Prophecy_SeminarI use the same method and read opposition material, too. Sometimes doing so reinforces my own view, and sometimes it winds up changing my view. That's what happened when I studied the two different topics of preterism (which was the opposing view at the time) and the Trinity (which was the view I currently held, until I decided to prove it against the opposing views). It seems the most widely-held views often turn out to be the incorrect ones when they are investigated without bias. Thanks for the other recommendations! Bev Bev, if you don't have the book "The Parousia" perhaps it would be better to order the DVD's that also come with the MP3's... Ted |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 15, 2008 11:48:30 GMT -5
Bev, if you don't have the book "The Parousia" perhaps it would be better to order the DVD's that also come with the MP3's... Ted "The Parousia" by Russell? I have it and have read it! I am primarily interested in finding DVDs that will keep the viewer's interest (read that as "not boring") so that I can watch them with my husband, who has not yet embraced preterism. Bev |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 15, 2008 12:13:21 GMT -5
Bev,
I think I am going to buy the DVDs after the first of the year. I think they will be good to see.
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Post by Allyn on Dec 15, 2008 12:32:54 GMT -5
Update Bev,
I decided and just now ordered the DVD set
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Post by Once4all on Dec 15, 2008 12:34:35 GMT -5
Bev, I think I am going to buy the DVDs after the first of the year. I think they will be good to see. Allyn, If I don't also buy them before then, I'd really like your opinion of them when you watch them. Thanks! Bev |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 15, 2008 12:36:04 GMT -5
You were posting at the same time I was writing my reply. LOL. I look forward to your comments about them.
Bev
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Post by mellontes on Dec 15, 2008 13:30:57 GMT -5
Me too! Let me know of the quality...
Ted
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Post by Allyn on Dec 15, 2008 13:55:42 GMT -5
I'll let you know how they go  |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 15, 2008 16:16:18 GMT -5
... he is opposed to a corporate resurrection just as he is opposed to anyone else but John writing the fourth Gospel (another topic). Ted, I meant to comment on this in my original reply to you, but spaced it out. Regarding the authorship of the Gospel of John, I've read a very interesting book that puts forth Lazarus (brother of Mary and Martha) as the author. Have you heard this theory (or read the book)? Here is the book's website: www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/Bev |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 15, 2008 18:09:22 GMT -5
... he is opposed to a corporate resurrection just as he is opposed to anyone else but John writing the fourth Gospel (another topic). Ted, I meant to comment on this in my original reply to you, but spaced it out. Regarding the authorship of the Gospel of John, I've read a very interesting book that puts forth Lazarus (brother of Mary and Martha) as the author. Have you heard this theory (or read the book)? Here is the book's website: www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/Bev Yes, that would be the one. However, I heard it first from David Curtis. I am afraid that this is a minority view even within preterism. I also have read the book. I wrote the author and gave him a brief outline of preterism, but I never heard back. Here is a link to a transcript of a message on the beloved disciple: www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/topical/disciple_jesus_loved.htmIf you right-click on the "Podcast" icon and choose "Save As," you can download it as an MP3... His various understanding of this beloved disciple is sprinkled throughout his messages as the context demands and understanding increases... Ted |
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Post by Sower on Dec 15, 2008 20:58:50 GMT -5
I'll let you know how they go Whoopee!  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 16, 2008 8:55:37 GMT -5
I am looking forward to receiving the DVDs but I do want to add to this thread the understanding to all that I am not a calvinist. Ed Stevens, as far as I know, is a calvinist and that teaching I am opposed to. I do not find compelling evidence in Scripture to receive that teaching.
I call myself a preterist but with the statement that I do not agree with all preterists. I wonder, even as I type, if I should refrain from the title preterist and be like Lady Sower and Noble (from CARM) and call myself simply a biblist, for it is surely only from the Bible that I receive the truth.
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Post by Allyn on Dec 16, 2008 10:48:58 GMT -5
... he is opposed to a corporate resurrection just as he is opposed to anyone else but John writing the fourth Gospel (another topic). Ted, I meant to comment on this in my original reply to you, but spaced it out. Regarding the authorship of the Gospel of John, I've read a very interesting book that puts forth Lazarus (brother of Mary and Martha) as the author. Have you heard this theory (or read the book)? Here is the book's website: www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/Bev FYI, I have added "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved" to my www.endtimesmadness.com/home.html website and it is featured as the "Newest Article" on the home page or go directly to www.endtimesmadness.com/TheDisciple-1.html . I made it an enhanced version so that the Scripture references will pop up in a verse text box so that as people read the 7 chapters they can easily review the Bible passages. |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 16, 2008 12:59:05 GMT -5
One of the points, for me anyway, that helps in aiding the premise of "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved" is that I believe that anyone healed Must present themself to the High Priest under the Mosaic Law. This too might be the reason the High Priest knew Lazuras as indicated when Peter and the other disciple went with Jesus upon His arrest.
Just a thought.
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Post by Once4all on Dec 16, 2008 13:07:50 GMT -5
I am looking forward to receiving the DVDs but I do want to add to this thread the understanding to all that I am not a calvinist. Ed Stevens, as far as I know, is a calvinist and that teaching I am opposed to. I do not find compelling evidence in Scripture to receive that teaching. I call myself a preterist but with the statement that I do not agree with all preterists. I wonder, even as I type, if I should refrain from the title preterist and be like Lady Sower and Noble (from CARM) and call myself simply a biblist, for it is surely only from the Bible that I receive the truth. Hoping not to alienate my other beloved preterist brothers and sisters here, I just want to say, "God bless you, Allyn!" I, too, am very much opposed to Calvinism and probably my biggest concern about the Ed Stevens' videos is whether or not Calvinism is "pushed" in them. It would severely turn me off it it was. I know we can't all agree in all areas of theology, but it would benefit every author and teacher if they would stick to the topic without trying to put in a plug for their other beliefs when they are discussing something specific with the intent of convincing the reader of their position. As an example, I used to subscribe to Creation magazine. Thought it was a treasure trove of scientific information in support of biblical creation. Then they decided to add a new section to the magazine discussing other areas of theology. The second article was on the "Five Solas," where they also discussed TULIP. That, sadly, was the end of my support. I'd no longer feel comfortable leaving the magazines in waiting rooms for others to discover. Maybe it was an over-reaction, but it really turned me off. Bev |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 16, 2008 13:58:21 GMT -5
... Here is a link to a transcript of a message on the beloved disciple: www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/topical/disciple_jesus_loved.htmIf you right-click on the "Podcast" icon and choose "Save As," you can download it as an MP3... His various understanding of this beloved disciple is sprinkled throughout his messages as the context demands and understanding increases... Ted Thanks for that link, Ted! I'm not sure I agree with what he says at the end regarding the authorship of the epistles, but the rest of it seems to be right from J. Phillips' book. Frankly, I believe this makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. I liked Curtis' comments about being Bereans, such as: "Hopefully this study will be a wake-up call for all of us to be Bereans. It is our responsibility to search the Scriptures and not to rely on what others have said. We have to stop relying on the "scholars" and do our own homework. The "-scholars" tend to rely on the work of other "scholars" that went before them. What happens if successive generations tended to rely on the work of those who have preceded them? And what happens if an error gets introduced into this sequence early on? If an error went unchallenged long enough, it would eventually become accepted as truth and correcting this error would become more difficult as time went on, because its "historical acceptance" would become a rationale for assuming that this idea must be true." and "Believer, we must test everything we believe by the text. The beliefs you hold must come from the text. There is often a difference between what people say the Bible says and what it actually says. The Bereans are praised for checking out Paul's teaching, so how much more should we test what we are taught. Even if everybody thinks that something is true, that does not make it true! Do you agree with that? Remember there was a time when all the educated people believed that the earth was flat, and anyone would be ridiculed if they questioned the accepted truth." He said that "tradition can rob us of the precious truth of Scripture." I do pray that the Berean minds among us would apply that same veracity to the doctrine of the Trinity. But, anyway, thanks again for the link. I'm going to send it to my preacher as a reading assignment for him.   Bev |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 16, 2008 22:37:21 GMT -5
Ted isn't Calvinist either... unless you think I was just ordained to say that. Or did I just choose to say that...I don't know any more... ;D
I think it is funny how Calvinists get all bent out of shape when someone criticizes a Calvinist's beliefs, and not necessarily strictly in the area of Calvinism. It could be about anything - Christmas, rapture, resurrection, etc.
Don't they realize that according to their view, the person who is putting forth the criticism is just doing what God told him to do. What right do they have to get bent out of shape in retaliation to what God has ordained. Unless of course, they are retaliating because God told them to do so. Imagine that. God fighting with himself and using us to carry all that out...
I like what Joshua said, "...choose you this day whom you will serve..." (Joshua 24:15)
Bev,
I would download the Mark 13 MP3's on to a CD and give that to your pastor...
David Curtis is Calvinist and that view does come through in his messages...
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 21, 2008 20:55:33 GMT -5
Goodevening,
I just finished reading The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved and thought it was very good. I honestly had no objections to the teaching.
I agreed with it.
What do you folks think of it?
Thanks
Steve
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Post by Once4all on Dec 22, 2008 0:13:28 GMT -5
Goodevening, I just finished reading The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved and thought it was very good. I honestly had no objections to the teaching. I agreed with it. What do you folks think of it? Thanks Steve I agree with it, too. I think he makes a very strong case. There certainly seems to be more internal evidence for Lazarus being the author than there is for John. Bev |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 27, 2008 17:07:25 GMT -5
I am looking forward to receiving the DVDs but I do want to add to this thread the understanding to all that I am not a calvinist. Ed Stevens, as far as I know, is a calvinist and that teaching I am opposed to. I do not find compelling evidence in Scripture to receive that teaching.
I call myself a preterist but with the statement that I do not agree with all preterists. I wonder, even as I type, if I should refrain from the title preterist and be like Lady Sower and Noble (from CARM) and call myself simply a biblist, for it is surely only from the Bible that I receive the truth. I received the DVDs today. They are a four part series. I have watched the first in its entirety and the second I am 12 minutes into it. So far I have no complaints. The second disk is about the New Heavens and Earth. I can agree with much of what Ed Stevens teaches but I take issue with a couple of his points. Ed complains that one segment of preterism takes the NH&NE as something other than spiritual covenantal meaning. He says it certainly is covenant based but that its meaning is not to be spiritualized. I don't think I have a problem with that generally speaking. Ed admits to not having a grasp on understanding the capabilities of a Satan and demons in the Lake of Fire but he feels Satan is certainly there in the LofF. The second half of the 2nd dvd was very interesting for me. Ed delved into the OT language and symbolism and illustrated the millennial aspect as understood by a Jew. Very interesting. |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 27, 2008 22:38:14 GMT -5
Allyn, thanks for that update and review of the DVDs. Regarding your comment on the 2nd half of the 2nd DVD, that's one thing I'm also finding very interesting about King's "The Spirit of Prophecy" - he is comparing and explaining the various physical/spiritual pairs between the old and new covenants.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Dec 28, 2008 9:37:33 GMT -5
Bev,
I made it through all 4.5 hours od DVD and I came away mostly dissatisfied and some what enlightened. I was enlightened on the heaven and earth portion but was disastisfied with the answers given during the Q&A. Ed was stumped by a couple of questions and gave wrong answers to some others, IMO. I can tell his scholarship is not in verse by verse study but rather the study of other works. I am not holding this against the man - I am simply forewarning you if you choose to order the set.
I have big issues with calvinism and so maybe this is why I was truly disappointed even though calvinism came out during the last session of Q&A.
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Post by Once4all on Dec 28, 2008 21:55:52 GMT -5
Allyn, thanks again for your review of the DVD set. I'm sorry you had to spend the money for it first (but I'm thankful to have your review so that I don't have to!)
Bev
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