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Post by Allyn on Dec 9, 2008 8:22:05 GMT -5
Has anyone else here taken the time to read some of Josephus? I have been reading the war with the Jews where the Roman armies encompassed Jerusalem. I was impressed with the "compassion" Titus had for the plight of the Jews in that he was not there to annialate them but to bring them back under control. Josephus had the job of relating this plea, to surrender, from Titus on a couple of occasions but that the Jews, who were themselves killing each other within the city, saw this plea as a weakness in the Roman armies and so continued their resistance.
I was also impressed how the final days of destruction resembled chapter 16 of Revelation through the signs and prophetic declarations that were given as told by Josephus.
It really is an interesting read and firms up my position of fulfillment.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 9, 2008 12:22:01 GMT -5
Good morning Allyn, I just finished reading a bit from the The War of the Jews too. It is amazing how that book does report quite a lot which show the fulfillments in Revelation. When reading about how the Jews were killing themselves it actually shows the demonic frenzy taking place within Jerusalem at that very time. And the pagan Titus was the one with almost "Christian compassion." Duncan McKenzie does a good job at this link www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2006_mckenzie_covenant-judgment.htmlshowing the Covenant judgments of Revelation, and how they fulfill the curses of Dueteronomy and Leviticus. He uses Josephus to show how they were fulfilled perfectly. I'm sure you've seen this already, but just in case you haven't. Steve |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 9, 2008 13:00:21 GMT -5
Good morning Allyn, I just finished reading a bit from the The War of the Jews too. It is amazing how that book does report quite a lot which show the fulfillments in Revelation. When reading about how the Jews were killing themselves it actually shows the demonic frenzy taking place within Jerusalem at that very time. And the pagan Titus was the one with almost "Christian compassion." Duncan McKenzie does a good job at this link www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2006_mckenzie_covenant-judgment.htmlshowing the Covenant judgments of Revelation, and how they fulfill the curses of Dueteronomy and Leviticus. He uses Josephus to show how they were fulfilled perfectly. I'm sure you've seen this already, but just in case you haven't. Steve No, I hadn't read that before. Thanks for the link. |
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Post by phil on Dec 9, 2008 20:25:35 GMT -5
I have read and re-read Josephus 5 or 6 times and use his "Wars' volumes extensively in my discussions. On another thread here I have provided some Josephus writings as part of a discussion.
Josephus also relates the issue of the "MARK" on the hand or the forehead. This mark was used primarliy for the distribution of food and water (imagine that) and the people (mostly men) had a choice of where to get the mark.
As I have stated on many sites over and over again, I believe John's writings were directly taken from or influenced by Josephus' accounts of the war period. I have virtually no stock in revelation as truth, but rather a repeat of history that occured during 63 - 70 with a message of hope to the future.
I also believe, and I have said this already on this site, that John and Josephus are the "two witnesses" spoken of, and especially since John is the only apostle to have survived past the second half of the war period and did witness teh atrocities that befell the Jews.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 9, 2008 21:17:09 GMT -5
Hi Phil,
Could you please point me to the part in Josephus where it talks about the "Mark."
I've probably read it, but I must of blown by it.
Thanks.
Steve
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Post by mtymousie on Dec 16, 2008 19:26:43 GMT -5
I firmly believe that if we are to remain true to honest study, then we are obligated to look for the fulfillment within the generation the prophecy was given to. I firmly believe that it is no coincidence that Josephus recorded eyewitness accounts that were reported to him and that those records have been preserved. And I firmly believe that those EYEWITNESS accounts PROVE that the prophecy was LITERALLY fulfilled!
JMO,
Dale
aka
preteristmouse
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Post by Sower on Dec 17, 2008 20:53:08 GMT -5
I have the book, " Josephus, the complete works," but have only read parts of it!
Lady Sower~
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Post by Allyn on Dec 17, 2008 21:35:42 GMT -5
I have the book, " Josephus, the complete works," but have only read parts of it! Lady Sower~ Hi Sister I don't have the book in front of me because I lent it to my mother but I think the section that talks about the destruction of Jerusalem is the most graphic and detailed. I especially was impressed by the fact that God had used a man to walk the streets of Jerusalem for 3 years prior to Titus surrounding the city, saying woe, woe, woe Jerusalem the fallen city (something like that). This man had all sorts of things done to him as the Jews tried to kill him, but it wasn't until his work was done that this man was struck by a large stone thrown by the romans as they were bombarding the city walls. |
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Post by Sower on Dec 19, 2008 22:54:36 GMT -5
Hi Allyn, I just saw your post, and will try to find the part you told me about.  Thanks, dear brother. Lady Sower~ |
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Post by mtymousie on Dec 19, 2008 23:52:21 GMT -5
Wars Of The Jews, Book Six, Chapter 5:3 "Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost."
preteristmouse
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 20, 2008 9:08:36 GMT -5
That is one of the most haunting paragraphs in all of Josephus.
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Post by Allyn on Dec 20, 2008 13:19:01 GMT -5
That is one of the most haunting paragraphs in all of Josephus. There is another historical fact in that same section where Josephus tells of a False Prophet who told the Jews in Jerusalem to gather in one section of the temple mount and there God would redeem them from the destruction falling upon the city. However, instead those hundreds and thousands were immediately killed. |
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Post by Sower on Jan 3, 2009 20:51:14 GMT -5
Hi Sister I don't have the book in front of me because I lent it to my mother but I think the section that talks about the destruction of Jerusalem is the most graphic and detailed. I especially was impressed by the fact that God had used a man to walk the streets of Jerusalem for 3 years prior to Titus surrounding the city, saying woe, woe, woe Jerusalem the fallen city (something like that). This man had all sorts of things done to him as the Jews tried to kill him, but it wasn't until his work was done that this man was struck by a large stone thrown by the romans as they were bombarding the city walls. Hi Allyn, Is this what you were talking about? The Wars of the Jews (Chapter 5)... The son of Ananus, a plebian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is custom for everyone to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud. "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about day and night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say anything for himself, or anything peculiar to those that chastised him, but still he went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator; where he was whipped till his bones were lais bare; yet did he not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then the procurator) asked him who he was, and whence he came, and why he uttered such words; he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe, to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe, to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last,- "Woe, woe, to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presage, he gave up the ghost. Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 3, 2009 20:57:40 GMT -5
That is exactly the place  I see Dale found it also |
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Post by Sower on Jan 3, 2009 21:11:56 GMT -5
That is exactly the place I see Dale found it also Oophs, I should have read first! ;D Oh well, Dale's better with more details! Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Jan 4, 2009 14:07:34 GMT -5
I found an audiobook version of it on Amazon. It's about 22 hours of dramatized audio. One of the best purchases I have ever made...PERIOD. It almost brought me to tears a number of times.
Listening too it is a must.
Pmike
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Post by Allyn on Jan 4, 2009 14:21:23 GMT -5
Do you have a link Pmike?
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Jan 4, 2009 23:57:47 GMT -5
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Post by Sower on Jan 5, 2009 22:51:33 GMT -5
Thanks PMike!  Lady Sower~ |
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