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Post by Once4all on Dec 23, 2008 17:11:06 GMT -5
I am SO disappointed. I did not know that Max King/Tim King and Presence Ministries promoted universalism in the form of pantelism. I just received in the mail today Max King's book, The Spirit of Prophecy. It came with a free 23-minute DVD, which I thought was well-done. I went to the Presence website to see about other DVDs.
I got side-tracked by a link to their "Sister Site" and came away from there with a very bad taste in my mouth. My first clue that something was amiss was a brief but positive mention of universalism in one of the articles. Then I clicked on a link in their menu bar that took me to a website that features (among other things) erotic art. That was enough for me.
I feel like I just wasted my money on King's book.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Dec 23, 2008 17:34:15 GMT -5
I am SO disappointed. I did not know that Max King/Tim King and Presence Ministries promoted universalism in the form of pantelism. I just received in the mail today Max King's book, The Spirit of Prophecy. It came with a free 23-minute DVD, which I thought was well-done. I went to the Presence website to see about other DVDs. I got side-tracked by a link to their "Sister Site" and came away from there with a very bad taste in my mouth. My first clue that something was amiss was a brief but positive mention of universalism in one of the articles. Then I clicked on a link in their menu bar that took me to a website that features (among other things) erotic art. That was enough for me. I feel like I just wasted my money on King's book. Bev There is strongly something to be said for just reading your Bible and letting the Spirit of God guide you through. |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 23, 2008 18:23:11 GMT -5
There is strongly something to be said for just reading your Bible and letting the Spirit of God guide you through. Amen to that, Allyn. So are my pantelism suspicions about the Kings true? Bev |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 23, 2008 21:50:27 GMT -5
Goodevening,
OK, here is the definition to Pantelism.
Pantelism: The understanding that the Scriptures, both prophetically and redemptively, are fulfilled in their entirety in the person and work of Jesus Christ – the one to whom the whole of prophetic and redemptive history points. This fulfillment completed all Biblical eschatology, being demonstrated in Christ and His elect first-fruits saints end-of-the-age ministry, finding consummation in His prophesied Second Coming [Parousia] and Judgment upon the Old Covenant Mosaic world of the Law and Temple, circa AD70.
Preterism is the belief that all Bible prophecies, including those concerned with the return of Christ, resurrection of the dead, rapture, judgment, and arrival of the kingdom of God, came to fulfillment in a.d. 70 upon the destruction of Herod’s temple in Jerusalem as predicted by Jesus in Luke 21
I hate to ask this, but what is the difference? I've never heard of Pantelism.
Thanks.
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Post by mellontes on Dec 23, 2008 22:08:58 GMT -5
Goodevening, OK, here is the definition to Pantelism. Pantelism: The understanding that the Scriptures, both prophetically and redemptively, are fulfilled in their entirety in the person and work of Jesus Christ – the one to whom the whole of prophetic and redemptive history points. This fulfillment completed all Biblical eschatology, being demonstrated in Christ and His elect first-fruits saints end-of-the-age ministry, finding consummation in His prophesied Second Coming [Parousia] and Judgment upon the Old Covenant Mosaic world of the Law and Temple, circa AD70. Preterism is the belief that all Bible prophecies, including those concerned with the return of Christ, resurrection of the dead, rapture, judgment, and arrival of the kingdom of God, came to fulfillment in a.d. 70 upon the destruction of Herod’s temple in Jerusalem as predicted by Jesus in Luke 21 I hate to ask this, but what is the difference? I've never heard of Pantelism. Thanks. Whatever this is worth... from Wikipedia: "The difference however is that in full preterism, while the scriptures have been prophetically fulfilled, they have not been redemptively fulfilled; Pantelism views this as inconsistent. While preterism views people as born "lost" and must profess personal faith in Jesus Christ in order to escape Hell when they die, Pantelism holds that the judgement of Hell recorded in the Bible, including the lake of fire, refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in the year AD 70. Apart from this distinction Pantelism agrees with all of the other prophetic events, such as other forms of preterism believe. With the Old Covenant system of law and judgment ended, redemption came to Israel and so reconciliation then spread to all humankind, everywhere, afterwards, and regardless of a professed personal faith in Jesus Christ. Thus it is viewed by some as a form of Christian universalism for it accepts the authority of the Bible, unlike some other forms of universalism." For me, the judgment of hell (sheol/hades) refers to the "abode" that people went to before 70 AD. With the 2nd advent and access made open to heaven, there is no reason for any one to go to that place any more - it has been abolished. What pantelists miss (IMHO) is that the new heavens and earth exist "IN CHRIST." There are still those outside of Christ. While redemption is available to all, all will not partake of it. Narrow is the way... |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Dec 23, 2008 22:16:37 GMT -5
Thanks.
quote from Wikipedia:
so reconciliation then spread to all humankind, everywhere, afterwards, and regardless of a professed personal faith in Jesus Christ.
So it really is universalism.
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Post by mellontes on Dec 24, 2008 9:36:27 GMT -5
Thanks. quote from Wikipedia:
so reconciliation then spread to all humankind, everywhere, afterwards, and regardless of a professed personal faith in Jesus Christ.So it really is universalism. Just remember that this is "wikipedias" definition. It is likely that not all pantelists (haven't met any that mentioned that particular title) are universalists. It is a relatively new term. Go to the original source and ask them to clarify what they mean. |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 26, 2008 22:52:15 GMT -5
Preliminary report on "The Spirit of Prophecy" by Max King.
My negative impressions from the website and fear of universalism via pantelism aside, I'm finding the book itself to be one of the best written, easiest to understand works on preterism I've read so far.
I thought it only fair to report the positive side after starting off with such negative impressions.
Bev
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Post by Paul Kelly on Dec 27, 2008 15:13:36 GMT -5
Hi Bev,
Never heard of Pantelism. Is it anything to do with being obsessed by panteloons?
And I read "Spirit of Prophecy" some time ago and enjoyed it immensely. With every book on anything you're always going to get a few bits and pieces that you think ruin it (usually because you believe differently....lol). But I just ignore all that and focus on the stuff I can buy into.
Although I like Don Preston's books I find them pretty dry reading and not very reader friendly. He always seems to be trying to disprove something that you're not aware of, rather than writing something that as well as being instructive is also enjoyable to read.
King's book by contrast is nice and easy to read, yet convincing at the same time. When he touches on universalism just stick your fingers in your ears and go .....lalalalala. That's what I do. What? You think that's childish? Well...lalalalalalalalala
Paullalalalalalala
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Post by Once4all on Dec 27, 2008 22:30:25 GMT -5
Is it anything to do with being obsessed by panteloons? Sounds like a personal problem, my friend. You should probably see a professional about that.  Although I like Don Preston's books I find them pretty dry reading and not very reader friendly. He always seems to be trying to disprove something that you're not aware of, rather than writing something that as well as being instructive is also enjoyable to read. I agree. I find Preston's writing to be very dry, too. Max King's book is refreshing in comparison. King's book by contrast is nice and easy to read, yet convincing at the same time. When he touches on universalism just stick your fingers in your ears and go .....lalalalala. That's what I do. What? You think that's childish? Well...lalalalalalalalala
Paullalalalalalala LOL... I'll have to remember that tactic next time I read one of your emails, since it seems to work in writing, too.  (Just kidding) Bev |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Dec 28, 2008 15:04:08 GMT -5
LOL... I'll have to remember that tactic next time I read one of your emails, since it seems to work in writing, too. Er....lalalalalalala ;-) |
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