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Post by Morris on Jun 16, 2011 20:22:40 GMT -5
Oh, sorry Allyn. I meant, I'm not going to find out what JLVaughn thinks the difference is and why. |
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Post by JLVaughn on Jun 18, 2011 18:44:21 GMT -5
I'm not going to find out what JLVaughn thinks the difference is and why. Morris, You're not going to find out what? Can't a fellow take a trip and be off-line for a couple days? Sorry, I misunderstood your concern. You are concerned with nephesh chay. Something that the animals had. Rather than neshamah chay which only Adam and the disciples were explicitly given. I have a pretty good idea what I think, but what exactly do you think the difference between these are? Also, how did you determine that the disciples were given "neshamah chay" as opposed to "nephesh chay"? Morris, I have no idea what the two terms mean. I merely have a lot of observations that no one will take seriously and questions that no one will allow me to ask. By Gen. 1:26ff, the nephesh chay is something that both Adam and the animals have. No where does the text says the animals were breathed on to get the nephesh chay. In Gen. 2:7, Adam received the neshamah chay. Did that cause Adam to become a nephesh chay, as the English translations claim? Or was being a nephesh chay incidental. Why the obvious change in the meaning in the English text? In Gen. 1, the nephesh chay was something a critter had. In Gen. 2, Adam became/was a nephesh chay. Why did nephesh chay change from something Adam had to what Adam was? Why did Jesus need to breath on the disciples in John 20:22? Why is the seemingly obvious connection between the breath and the neshamah chay in Gen. 2 never addressed? What life did Adam lose in Genesis 3? The nephesh chay? The neshamah chay, or some other life? What life did we gain in Christ? Animal life? Or did we already have animal life (and more), yet gained some other greater life? Am I not allowed to notice these things or ask or ponder these questions? Adam had animal life. Adam, both before and after the fall, also had whatever life that pagans possess. But the Bible speaks of life aionios. That life, whatever it is, is spirit-filled life. It is a type of life that the disciples did not have until God breathed it on them. Adam lost some sort of life at the Fall. He did not lose animal life. He did not lose the life that human pagans possess. So what life is left? This spirit-filled life that the disciples received in John 20:22 is the only other type of life we know of. God breathed on Adam and Adam received some sort of life. Adam died and lost some sort of life. God breathed on the disciples and they received some sort of life. Why are these three not the same life? |
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Post by Morris on Jun 20, 2011 11:16:40 GMT -5
Morris, You're not going to find out what? Can't a fellow take a trip and be off-line for a couple days? Sorry. I had seen that you had been online several times over the days since the question was posed and I didn’t see an answer or a mention of you being away. It was like I was sitting in my office waiting for someone to drop something off to me and yet I kept seeing them walking by my door but not coming in. I didn't know what else to think of it. Alright, so what is difference between the " nephesh chay" (soul living) of Genesis 1:20 and " neshamah chay" (breath-of lives) of Genesis 2:7? Well, we can also find " neshamah" and " chay" in Genesis 7:22, " All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died". Note that the Septuagint and Vulgate both exclude "of the spirit". That's not to say I believe it shouldn't necessarily be there, but that I don't believe it changes the meaning. Either way, the breath of life existed at the time of the flood. Not only that, but the verse even references "nostrils" which is the exact same word used in Genesis 2:7. So whatever this nostril breath life refers to, it exists in both passages. If we would like to look at the Greek of the Septuagint, "breath" in Genesis 7:22 is Strong's #G5207 and appears in Acts 2:2, " And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting" which speaks of the Holy Spirit. I think this is what you believe "breath" to refer to, as opposed to simply ordinary life. However, it also appears in Acts 17:24-27, " God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us". I include the broader context to make a point later, but here it speaks of the life that everyone has. Therefore, the use of this "breath" is not tied to any specific application, whether in the OT Hebrew or the NT Greek. What about "nephesh" (soul) and "neshamah" (breath) in relation to each other? Well, they both appear in Joshua 11:11, " And they struck all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them. There was none left breathing. Then he burned Hazor with fire". Again we find no profound distinction between "soul" and "breath", or between "breath" and being alive. I think I will open a new thread in the CC forum on this topic, as there is much more to say, and more of your comments to address. |
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Post by JLVaughn on Jun 20, 2011 16:58:25 GMT -5
Morris, You're not going to find out what? Can't a fellow take a trip and be off-line for a couple days? Sorry. I had seen that you had been online several times over the days since the question was posed and I didn’t see an answer or a mention of you being away. It was like I was sitting in my office waiting for someone to drop something off to me and yet I kept seeing them walking by my door but not coming in. I didn't know what else to think of it. Do you have those dates and times? Or is this some exaggeration of reality just so you can excuse yourself? Don't bother opening up something in the CC forum on this. Just explain your view of the neshamah chay and the nephesh chay. Might as well add the ruwach chay of the Flood account. And please explain how it relates to or why it doesn't relate to John 20:22. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 20, 2011 20:54:23 GMT -5
Sorry. I had seen that you had been online several times over the days since the question was posed and I didn’t see an answer or a mention of you being away. It was like I was sitting in my office waiting for someone to drop something off to me and yet I kept seeing them walking by my door but not coming in. I didn't know what else to think of it. Do you have those dates and times? Or is this some exaggeration of reality just so you can excuse yourself? This is an understandable assumption/mistake. Jeff might stay logged in to P.V. all the time, like I do. When I turn on my computer, open my browser, and my tabs load, P.V. is one of those tabs. If I don't look at that tab all day, to someone else here at P.V. who checks, they will see me as "logged in," even though, from my perspective, I have not visited the site at all. |
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Post by Morris on Jun 21, 2011 13:19:47 GMT -5
Don't bother opening up something in the CC forum on this. Just explain your view of the neshamah chay and the nephesh chay. Might as well add the ruwach chay of the Flood account. And please explain how it relates to or why it doesn't relate to John 20:22. You're right. I didn't actually express my views. I mainly presented the uses of those words. Based on the word's definitions and their uses, I believe that "neshamah chay" simply means "breath of life"; in that breathing is evidence of life. In the example I gave of Joshua 11:11, we read, " There was none left breathing", meaning 'there was none left alive'. [humour]Perhaps, Joshua asked his men, 'Are they all dead?', to which the men answered, 'How are we to know the answer to such a profound and theological question'. Joshua then rested his forehead in the palm of his hand and encouraged himself in the Lord. Looking up again at his men he asked them, 'Were any of them breathing?'. The men enthusiastically replied, 'No sir! There was none left breathing!'[/humour] So in Genesis 2:7, God " breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", that is, God put life into Adam so that he became a living, breathing, being. And that is exactly what we find said next; " and man became a living being". He "became" (meaning 'to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass ( always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)). It was not incidental that Adam became a living being. God put that life in him, that same life by which Adam breathed air in and out again through his nostrils. As Job said it in Job 27:3, " As long as my breath is in me, And the breath of God in my nostrils". Life is of God. He is the source. Without God there is no life. So now, what do I think "nephesh chay" means? You may have already guessed. I believe it means "being living" (as in, a being that is living). Nephesh ("soul") means, "properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)". It is the being; the body, the emotions, the personality, the feelings, the desires. What do I believe the " ruwach chay" of the Flood account to be? Not much different then "breath of life" really. In fact it is very similar. Ruwach means, 'wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)'. Both "ruwach" and "neshamah" contain the ideas of wind and spirit, and both have been translated as "breath" and "spirit". However, it would appear that "ruwach" is broader in scope. (For instance, you would say 'in the ruwach of wisdom' but not 'in the neshamah of wisdom'.) Job 33:4 says, " The Spirit of [ruwach] God has made me, And the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life". Consider also Isaiah 42:5, " Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath [neshamah] to the people on it, And spirit [ruwach] to those who walk on it" Finally, for "how it relates to or why it doesn't relate to John 20:22". Well, I do think it relates, in that God is the source of all life. Jesus bestowed on the disciples the Spirit of God, showing them that He was the source. To have the Spirit of Christ is to have the Spirit of God. Romans 8:9, " But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." So as God was the source of life in the natural (our being, our soul), so is He also the source of life in the spiritual (beyond what is merely us) through Jesus Christ. We are " in God" by being " in Christ" (1 John 4:15,16 and Colossians 3:3). Those are my views and why. |
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