toml
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Post by toml on Apr 27, 2011 14:44:37 GMT -5
I am not sure anymore. I am on the verge of returning to my previous state of uncertainty. That is where I was at before becoming a preterist. I may need more proof now. For example, there is all kind of evidence that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. But there is no evidence that the return of Christ occurred in 70 AD. Nothing physical, anyway. So we say it was a spiritual event totally unnoticed by human beings. It is this spiritual fulfillment that led to some to embrace doctrines just as unprovable. So, I am not sure anymore.  Tom. No evidence that Jesus didn't return? Yes there is. Luke 21:5 has the disciples pointing out the temple and how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts. In the next verse Jesus says that the days are coming when there won't be "not left one stone upon another, that shall no be thrown down." They then ask him saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass? In Matthew 24:3 it says, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Mark 13:4 says, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? Jesus gives us the timely answer in Luke 21:20, And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 2 verses later Jesus says that For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And going to Luke 21:27 Jesus says while keeping on the same topic, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." How do we know it happened in 70AD? Luke 21:32, Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.Not once does Jesus change the topic, nor does he say this is for 2000 years in the future. It happened at the destruction Jerusalem in 70AD. The Son of man came in the glory of his Father in a cloud with power and great glory. This an excerpt from David B. Curtis. www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat07.htmlGod's "coming on the clouds of heaven" is a symbolic way of speaking of His presence, judgment and salvation. All through the Old Testament God was coming "on clouds," in salvation of His people and judgment of His enemies. Coming on the clouds indicates His Presence: Exodus 16:10; 19:9; 34:5, Leviticus 16:2, Numbers 11:25. Salvation: In Psalms 18:9-12, David speaks of his deliverance from Saul using apocalyptic language. Judgment: The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with His judgment of his enemies (Isaiah 19:1). We know from chapter 20 that God used the Assyrians as instruments of His wrath on Egypt, yet it says, "The LORD rides on a swift cloud..., Egypt will totter at His presence." God came to Egypt in judgment in 480BC. His presence was made known in judgment. But it was the Assyrians who were literally present. Similar language is used of Nineveh's fall (Nahum 1:3, 5-6): We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of God out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in 612 BC. When Jesus said he would come on the clouds, He was using the apocalyptic language of the prophets to identify himself as the Messiah, the Judge. Caiaphas reacted the way he did because he knew that only God came on clouds, that was a claim to deity. He knew that Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah of Daniel 7. Notice what Jesus says to Caiaphas in Mark 14:62: Here it says that they will see Him "coming with the clouds of heaven" while He is "sitting at the right hand of the Power." If this is literal and bodily, how could He do both at the same time? This is clearly apocalyptic language. His coming with the clouds is proof of His sitting on the right hand of power. John Lightfoot says this, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world. The evidence is in the words of Jesus and in the ruins of the Jerusalem temple. History records it was completely destroyed just as Jesus said it would be when He came back with our salvation. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Steve Are you suggesting that the Bible means what it says? If people would simply accept what the Bible says, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Genesis 1 & 2 would be saying what it means. And Romans 1.18-32 would mean what it says. But, I find nowhere that says the ministrations of God ended in 70AD. The temple was destroyed, the nation of Israel was to transformed into a spiritual kingdom, and we are and have been in an eternal age ever since. But nowhere is it written that the ministrations of God came to an end in 70 AD. God has not taken a hands-off position in the affairs of men. I think God is angry with people who XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.  Comment edited - Not appropriate |
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 27, 2011 18:51:14 GMT -5
I think God is angry with people XXXXXXXX. Steve, Comment edited out |
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toml
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Post by toml on Apr 28, 2011 6:39:12 GMT -5
You should not be concerned about whether or not I am angry with anyone. You should be concerned about whether or not God is angry with anyone. I just read, on another site, that the majority of American Christians now believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way to Heaven. That there are many paths to Heaven. God might not reveal His wrath in a pro-active way. He could simply let us wallow around in the messes we create. On the other hand, God does control the weather. He desides where the tornadoes go, and how strong they will be. There was a news report of a tornado one mile in width somewhere in Alabama. Over a hundred people died in the latest outbreak of severe weather. And you don't think God is angry! What does God have to do, put a tornado down on your house to get your attention? It saddens me that anyone that calls themselves "Christian" would dare deny the power of God.  |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 28, 2011 7:24:50 GMT -5
You should not be concerned about whether or not I am angry with anyone. You should be concerned about whether or not God is angry with anyone. I just read, on another site, that the majority of American Christians now believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way to Heaven. That there are many paths to Heaven. God might not reveal His wrath in a pro-active way. He could simply let us wallow around in the messes we create. On the other hand, God does control the weather. He desides where the tornadoes go, and how strong they will be. There was a news report of a tornado one mile in width somewhere in Alabama. Over a hundred people died in the latest outbreak of severe weather. And you don't think God is angry! What does God have to do, put a tornado down on your house to get your attention? It saddens me that anyone that calls themselves "Christian" would dare deny the power of God. Tom. Can you please show us where anyone here has denied the power of God? That is a very broad statement and casts aspersions on everyone participating in this thread since you haven't shown any proof. Please provide the specific quote from the person that has denied the power of God. It saddens me that you would make such a false statement. |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 28, 2011 7:31:20 GMT -5
Tom, I believe that Jesus Chtist is the Way the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Him. By what you are saying then I suppose this is the reason Nebraska has been spared as of late. Is this the reasoning you are trying to convey to us?
Here is something else to consider:
Rev. David Wilkerson, founding pastor of Times Square Church in New York City and author of the well-known book The Cross and the Switchblade, was killed Wednesday in a head-on collision in Texas. He was 79.
What did David Wilkerson do to anger God? Just how far does one take this Tom? Where do you personally draw the line?
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 28, 2011 10:27:11 GMT -5
You should not be concerned about whether or not I am angry with anyone. You should be concerned about whether or not God is angry with anyone. I just read, on another site, that the majority of American Christians now believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way to Heaven. That there are many paths to Heaven. God might not reveal His wrath in a pro-active way. He could simply let us wallow around in the messes we create. On the other hand, God does control the weather. He desides where the tornadoes go, and how strong they will be. There was a news report of a tornado one mile in width somewhere in Alabama. Over a hundred people died in the latest outbreak of severe weather. And you don't think God is angry! What does God have to do, put a tornado down on your house to get your attention? It saddens me that anyone that calls themselves "Christian" would dare deny the power of God. Tom, We have demonstrated that Rom. 1:18-32 do not mean what you claim they mean. You've not refuted our arguments. You have just ignored them. You believe all men should live by your beliefs. There is no room for disagreement with you. Your beliefs are the standard. Your beliefs are truth. You have made your beliefs to be the word of God. |
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toml
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Posts: 15
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Post by toml on Apr 28, 2011 11:00:11 GMT -5
You should not be concerned about whether or not I am angry with anyone. You should be concerned about whether or not God is angry with anyone. I just read, on another site, that the majority of American Christians now believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way to Heaven. That there are many paths to Heaven. God might not reveal His wrath in a pro-active way. He could simply let us wallow around in the messes we create. On the other hand, God does control the weather. He desides where the tornadoes go, and how strong they will be. There was a news report of a tornado one mile in width somewhere in Alabama. Over a hundred people died in the latest outbreak of severe weather. And you don't think God is angry! What does God have to do, put a tornado down on your house to get your attention? It saddens me that anyone that calls themselves "Christian" would dare deny the power of God. Tom. Can you please show us where anyone here has denied the power of God? That is a very broad statement and casts aspersions on everyone participating in this thread since you haven't shown any proof. Please provide the specific quote from the person that has denied the power of God. It saddens me that you would make such a false statement. Perhaps "power of God" was the wrong term. I should have said "wrath of God." There seems to a general attitude among those who take the opposing view that the principles of Romans 1.18-32 cannot be applied to America. And since weather is controlled by the power of God, the denial of the wrath of God seems also to be a denial of the power of God. I don't believe God would kill people just because He enjoys it, or for sport. There is a purpose for this outbreak of severe weather we've been experiencing in the last several weeks. And the only thing I can think of is that God is angry with America. But, since Scripture also states that judgment begins at the household of faith, I wrote the OP in the way that I did. So, I see the wrath of God a part of the power of God. Denying the wrath of God is also denying the power of God. Let me ask you a question. Who controls the weather?  |
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toml
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Posts: 15
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Post by toml on Apr 28, 2011 11:09:03 GMT -5
Tom, I believe that Jesus Chtist is the Way the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Him. By what you are saying then I suppose this is the reason Nebraska has been spared as of late. Is this the reasoning you are trying to convey to us? You know very well that is not what I am saying. I am just suggestin that is just another reason God mught be angry with America, especially those that calles themselves "Christians." Now that's a question I cannot answer. Why don't you ask God? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 28, 2011 11:56:10 GMT -5
Tom. Can you please show us where anyone here has denied the power of God? That is a very broad statement and casts aspersions on everyone participating in this thread since you haven't shown any proof. Please provide the specific quote from the person that has denied the power of God. It saddens me that you would make such a false statement. Perhaps "power of God" was the wrong term. I should have said "wrath of God." There seems to a general attitude among those who take the opposing view that the principles of Romans 1.18-32 cannot be applied to America. And since weather is controlled by the power of God, the denial of the wrath of God seems also to be a denial of the power of God. I don't believe God would kill people just because He enjoys it, or for sport. There is a purpose for this outbreak of severe weather we've been experiencing in the last several weeks. And the only thing I can think of is that God is angry with America. But, since Scripture also states that judgment begins at the household of faith, I wrote the OP in the way that I did. So, I see the wrath of God a part of the power of God. Denying the wrath of God is also denying the power of God. Let me ask you a question. Who controls the weather? I'm pretty sure that Jeff could answer questions on the weather better than I can, but I'll give it a shot. To say that God is in control of the weather to the point that He directs the path of hurricanes or tornados, then I don't believe that. I believe God put together the conditions on this planet (temperature, condensation, the jet stream, angle of the sun, atmospheric pressure, possible internal forces within the earth itself, and 1000 other particulars, etc., etc., etc.) along with human activities, agriculture or industry which can cause the weather to behave as it does now. Hurricanes and tornados go where they go not because God has mapped out their paths, but because of the properties that make up our atmosphere He created that form our weather. Tornados do what tornados do, which is spin around really fast and destroy anything they come into contact with. And sometimes people get in the way. Sounds callous, but thats just life on earth. Or is it possible that we now have the ability to control our own weather through technology. Beats me. |
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 28, 2011 12:30:18 GMT -5
Perhaps "power of God" was the wrong term. I should have said "wrath of God." There seems to a general attitude among those who take the opposing view that the principles of Romans 1.18-32 cannot be applied to America. No Tom, The principles of Romans 1:18-32 can not be applied to situations that are not comparable to the circumstances of Romans 1:16-17. You have ignored the context in your application and you have falsely judged those of us who have tried to understand and take that judgment into account. Are you operating on the premise that bad things happen to bad people, just because they are bad? That God is the producer of Karma? It rains on the just and the unjust. Tough luck. That is the way the physical universe is. All of it is hostile. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. God is dangerous. His creation is dangerous. Jesus compares himself to a lion? What kind of lion? The toothless lion of Seventh Day Adventism / Young Earth Creationism? Does your Jesus have no teeth? He's a nice guy? No threat to anyone? The fallen lion also of Seventh Day Adventism and Young Earth Creationism? Jesus compares himself to a critter that is disfigured by sin? Or the lion God actually made? The lion Adam named, "does violence?" The lion that is dangerous because that is what/who he is. The lion Adam feared, and likely carried a shield and a spear when he went to name it? God certainly can control the weather. But it's purely debatable philosophy to claim that He actually does control it, beyond the laws of physics that He put into place. You cast dispersions and judgments on those who disagree with you. We belong to Jesus. Not you. Jesus is our master. Not you. You are a usurper. You are trying to control what isn't yours to control. You are putting yourself in God's place. |
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toml
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Posts: 15
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Post by toml on Apr 28, 2011 15:07:08 GMT -5
Perhaps "power of God" was the wrong term. I should have said "wrath of God." There seems to a general attitude among those who take the opposing view that the principles of Romans 1.18-32 cannot be applied to America. No Tom, The principles of Romans 1:18-32 can not be applied to situations that are not comparable to the circumstances of Romans 1:16-17. You have ignored the context in your application and you have falsely judged those of us who have tried to understand and take that judgment into account. Are you operating on the premise that bad things happen to bad people, just because they are bad? That God is the producer of Karma? It rains on the just and the unjust. Tough luck. That is the way the physical universe is. All of it is hostile. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. God is dangerous. His creation is dangerous. Jesus compares himself to a lion? What kind of lion? The toothless lion of Seventh Day Adventism / Young Earth Creationism? Does your Jesus have no teeth? He's a nice guy? No threat to anyone? The fallen lion also of Seventh Day Adventism and Young Earth Creationism? Jesus compares himself to a critter that is disfigured by sin? Or the lion God actually made? The lion Adam named, "does violence?" The lion that is dangerous because that is what/who he is. The lion Adam feared, and likely carried a shield and a spear when he went to name it? God certainly can control the weather. But it's purely debatable philosophy to claim that He actually does control it, beyond the laws of physics that He put into place. You cast dispersions and judgments on those who disagree with you. We belong to Jesus. Not you. Jesus is our master. Not you. You are a usurper. You are trying to control what isn't yours to control. You are putting yourself in God's place. Jeff, It doesn't matter what my premise is - you just twist what I say anyway. So, unless you get off Mt. Olympus and join the mortals on earth, I do not intend to discuss anything with you. You are the reason I left the last time. If you don't stay away from me, I'll leave again. I don't need this. I would be willing to bet your narcisistic personality is the reason Roo was chased off too. |
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 28, 2011 15:15:33 GMT -5
No Tom, The principles of Romans 1:18-32 can not be applied to situations that are not comparable to the circumstances of Romans 1:16-17. You have ignored the context in your application and you have falsely judged those of us who have tried to understand and take that judgment into account. Are you operating on the premise that bad things happen to bad people, just because they are bad? That God is the producer of Karma? It rains on the just and the unjust. Tough luck. That is the way the physical universe is. All of it is hostile. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. God is dangerous. His creation is dangerous. Jesus compares himself to a lion? What kind of lion? The toothless lion of Seventh Day Adventism / Young Earth Creationism? Does your Jesus have no teeth? He's a nice guy? No threat to anyone? The fallen lion also of Seventh Day Adventism and Young Earth Creationism? Jesus compares himself to a critter that is disfigured by sin? Or the lion God actually made? The lion Adam named, "does violence?" The lion that is dangerous because that is what/who he is. The lion Adam feared, and likely carried a shield and a spear when he went to name it? God certainly can control the weather. But it's purely debatable philosophy to claim that He actually does control it, beyond the laws of physics that He put into place. You cast dispersions and judgments on those who disagree with you. We belong to Jesus. Not you. Jesus is our master. Not you. You are a usurper. You are trying to control what isn't yours to control. You are putting yourself in God's place. Jeff, It doesn't matter what my premise is - you just twist what I say anyway. So, unless you get off Mt. Olympus and join the mortals on earth, I do not intend to discuss anything with you. You are the reason I left the last time. If you don't stay away from me, I'll leave again. I don't need this. I would be willing to bet your narcisistic personality is the reason Roo was chased off too. Tom, You are the one who made yourself the standard for all Christianity. You are the one who condemned Christians for disagreeing with you. You are the one who said God was angry with us. You are the one who refuses to explain why. It's all about you, isn't it. You've called me a liar. You've called my beliefs "junk theology." You don't even know what preterists commonly teach. You don't seem to care either. It seems to me that you are the very definition of narcissism. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 28, 2011 19:58:11 GMT -5
TomL has deleted his account. He is no longer a member of Preterist Voice by his own decision.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 29, 2011 9:23:00 GMT -5
Wednesday, April 27, 2011 WHEN ALL MEANS FAIL To believe when all means fail is exceedingly pleasing to God and is most acceptable. Jesus said to Thomas, “You have believed because you have seen, but blessed are those that do believe and have not seen” (John 20:29). Blessed are those who believe when there is no evidence of an answer to prayer—who trust beyond hope when all means have failed. Someone has come to the place of hopelessness—the end of hope—the end of all means. A loved one is facing death and doctors give no hope. Death seems inevitable. Hope is gone. The miracle prayed for is not happening. That is when Satan’s hordes come to attack your mind with fear, anger, overwhelming questions: “Where is your God now? You prayed until you had no tears left. You fasted. You stood on promises. You trusted.” Blasphemous thoughts will be injected into your mind: “Prayer failed. Faith failed. Don’t quit on God—just do not trust him anymore. It doesn’t pay!” Even questioning God’s existence will be injected into your mind. These have been the devices of Satan for centuries. Some of the godliest men and women who ever lived were under such demonic attacks. To those going through the valley and shadow of death, hear this word: Weeping will last through some dark, awful nights—and in that darkness you will soon hear the Father whisper, “I am with you. I cannot tell you why right now, but one day it will all make sense. You will see it was all part of my plan. It was no accident. It was no failure on your part. Hold fast. Let me embrace you in your hour of pain.” Beloved, God has never failed to act but in goodness and love. When all means fail—his love prevails. Hold fast to your faith. Stand fast in his Word. There is no other hope in this world. davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/ |
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