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Post by lumberjack on Mar 5, 2011 9:24:26 GMT -5
Hi, my name is Joel Petersen, I'm 63 years old and I have a passion for The kingdom of God ( Gods reign and rule ) permeating the Earth's govermental sytems, basically making disciples of the nations and all that it encompasses. I'm what you would call a partial preterist postmillinialist christian reconstructionist. I look forward to engaging you folks in what you believe and why.
Regards, Lumberjack
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Post by Once4all on Mar 5, 2011 14:18:40 GMT -5
Welcome aboard, Joel! I look forward to getting to know you.  |
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Post by Allyn on Mar 5, 2011 14:31:35 GMT -5
Hi Joel - Thanks for joining.
Have you a starter topic you would like to discuss?
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Post by lumberjack on Mar 6, 2011 9:11:16 GMT -5
Hi,
Yes Allyn, there are a few that I sense that will be interesting to explore. Since I am self taught on the computer, I ask that you have a little patience with me trying to navigate on this site. When I went thru school all we had was slide rules. And being a logger, I really don't use a computer in the woods.
First off, can I send a " PM " to people on this site ?
I think the first topic will be in the arena of the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit. How's that sound ?
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Post by Once4all on Mar 7, 2011 14:55:31 GMT -5
Joel, near the top of each page you'll see a white button that is labeled "PM Yourself!" Above that is a dropdown list of members. If you select a name from the list, then click the PM button, it will open a PM window pre-addressed to the person you selected from the list.
Another option is to click on the little PM icon under the member's picture/avatar (if they have one) to the left of any post. The PM icon is the one on the right. You may see two or three icons lined up there.
You can also click on a members name linked at the left of any post and you will see an option to PM them from their profile.
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Post by robine on Oct 22, 2011 6:41:26 GMT -5
Hi
My Name is Robin Elliott and I live in Muskegon, MI . I believe also in Fulfilled Eschatology.
And that 2nd advent is a past event.
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Post by Allyn on Oct 22, 2011 7:57:55 GMT -5
Hi My Name is Robin Elliott and I live in Muskegon, MI . I believe also in Fulfilled Eschatology. And that 2nd advent is a past event. Thanks for joining, Robin. Feel free to add your 2cents to any discussion - old or new - many of us check in several times a month. Welcome to Truth Upon Truth - Preterist Voice |
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Post by Morris on Oct 22, 2011 14:59:45 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Robin!
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Post by Once4all on Oct 22, 2011 18:31:37 GMT -5
Welcome, Robin! It's nice to meet you. As Allyn said, feel free to start a discussion or add to any existing one, no matter how old it is.
Allyn... several times a month? Some of us do check in more frequently than that!
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Post by Allyn on Oct 22, 2011 20:13:20 GMT -5
Welcome, Robin! It's nice to meet you. As Allyn said, feel free to start a discussion or add to any existing one, no matter how old it is. Allyn... several times a month? Some of us do check in more frequently than that! I know, I know. I was just being cautious  |
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Post by lumberjack on Dec 4, 2011 11:43:36 GMT -5
Hi, just checking back in. I see not much has changed with anything. Christianity still declining and the nations war against each other. Looks like Satan still rules. Are you FP's as disillusioned as I am?
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Post by Allyn on Dec 4, 2011 14:28:16 GMT -5
Nope, in fact I am more encouraged then ever. I know when the Last Days were so its all good in the kingdom from then onward.
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Post by Morris on Dec 5, 2011 13:44:09 GMT -5
Can't say I'm disillusioned either. Disillusionment comes from not experiencing what is expected. I don't have any expectation that "nations" will become disciples of Jesus. Only people can do that; like that neighbour next to us that we find so irritating.
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Post by lumberjack on Dec 18, 2011 21:36:08 GMT -5
What I'm getting out of you two is that you are comfortable with the status quo, that is, it'sok that Satan rules the nations.
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Post by Morris on Dec 19, 2011 13:44:38 GMT -5
What I'm getting out of you two is that you are comfortable with the status quo, that is, it'sok that Satan rules the nations. Quite the opposite actually. Nations won't change unless people change. I find that many 'Kingdom' people are trying to force a spiritual Kingdom on to a temporal Kingdom with temporal methods (albeit with good intentions). Scripture instructs us to display the spiritual Kingdom to a temporal Kingdom using spiritual methods. Scripturally, we are to pray for our governments, obey and submit to them, for the Lord's sake. Romans 13:1, " Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities" 1 Timothy 2:1,2, " I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." Titus 3:1,2, " Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men." Hebrews 13:17, " Obey your leaders and submit to their authority" 1 Peter 2:13-17, " Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king." For whose sake do you wish to see the Kingdom of God in Earth's governmental systems? If it is indeed for the Lord's sake, I believe we should do it the Lord's way. As such, I don't believe it is for our comfort either, as Jesus said even when he was on the Earth, " you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake". We are to do all these things I shared above, not to enjoy some golden age, but rather " as a witness to all the nations", that people would come to the knowledge of His saving grace. In this we further the Kingdom of God, for His sake. |
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Post by edwardgoodie on Dec 20, 2011 10:13:34 GMT -5
Morris,
You have used a form of exegesis that is very common, and one that I used for 20 years. The form is that it is taken out of context.
You said, "...As such, I don't believe it is for our comfort either, as Jesus said even when he was on the Earth, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake".
You are quoting from Matthew 24:9:
Matthew 24:9 - Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
As a preterist, I realize Jesus is addressing four of his disciples (Jewish Christians) in private conversation - NOT US.
Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mark 13:3-4 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
I would interpret Matthew 24:9 in light of Jesus' present audience. After all, He was answering THEIR question, right?
You need to ask yourself this question: "Would other non-Jewish nations be hating these individuals or would it be the unbelieving Jews who would hate these individuals?"
Because the NT is ripe with examples of the apostate Jews persecuting the Jewish Christians, I would have to go with the latter. It was THESE NATIONS of apostate Jews that would do the hating. Today, most people (and nations) really could care less what Christians do - unless these Christians do harm to their way of living (Zionism, hunt for oil, etc.)
Here are all those verses that refer to persecution by those nations of Jews:
(Matthew 23:34-36, Acts 8:3, Acts 9:23, Acts 13:45, Acts 13:50, Acts 14:2, Acts 14:19, Acts 17:5, Acts 17:13, Acts 18:12, Acts 20:3, Acts 20:19, Acts 21:11, Acts 21:27, Acts 22:19, Acts 22:30, Acts 23:12, Acts 23:27, Acts 24:27, Acts 25:2, Acts 25:7, Acts 25:24, Acts 26:2, Acts 26:7, Acts 26:21, 2 Corinthians 11:26, Gal 4:29, Philippians 3:6, 1 Thessalonians 2:14).
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Post by Morris on Dec 20, 2011 23:55:54 GMT -5
As a preterist, I realize Jesus is addressing four of his disciples (Jewish Christians) in private conversation - NOT US. Yes, I am quite aware of this. It was an example. Our comfort, and by "our" I mean anyone in general, is not more important than someone else's opportunity to be added to the Kingdom. If God did not spare the first century Christians of suffering, why would we believe that we should be spared. I'm not saying that we must suffer, just that our comfort isn't the objective of the Kingdom. Now, that said, we shouldn't be too quick to say that just because these things were said in private, that they have no relevance to us. John 17:14-20 " I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word..." This essentially the same concept as what Jesus presented in Matthew 24. What is interesting to me here is that Jesus speaks of His sanctification for their sake, that they also may be sanctified. Jesus sanctified Himself for them, that they would in response, exercise that sanctification for His sake. I see no reason why this has changed. |
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Post by lumberjack on Jan 2, 2012 10:05:55 GMT -5
Morris,
Would you have submitted to the rule of Hitler and the Nazi government if you lived under that government ?
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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 2, 2012 22:10:23 GMT -5
As a preterist, I realize Jesus is addressing four of his disciples (Jewish Christians) in private conversation - NOT US. Yes, I am quite aware of this. It was an example. Our comfort, and by "our" I mean anyone in general, is not more important than someone else's opportunity to be added to the Kingdom. If God did not spare the first century Christians of suffering, why would we believe that we should be spared. I'm not saying that we must suffer, just that our comfort isn't the objective of the Kingdom. Now, that said, we shouldn't be too quick to say that just because these things were said in private, that they have no relevance to us. John 17:14-20 " I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word..." This essentially the same concept as what Jesus presented in Matthew 24. What is interesting to me here is that Jesus speaks of His sanctification for their sake, that they also may be sanctified. Jesus sanctified Himself for them, that they would in response, exercise that sanctification for His sake. I see no reason why this has changed. Morris, I seem to always have these types of conversations. The types I refer to are: (1) Spiritual principles (2) Audience Relevance Here is a spiritual principle that refers to what you write of: 2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. When one assumes that the "world" mentioned in the verses you brought forth refers to a globalized world view, then one misses out entirely on the true meaning. It was the old covenant world of the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism. That world in which people were falling back to, that world which was passing away. The "end of all things" is associated with that world. It is the same thing with "nations" mentioned in your first post in regard to Matthew 24:9... There is audience relevance and there is spiritual principle. We shouldn't mix them together... |
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Post by Morris on Jan 3, 2012 11:36:26 GMT -5
Morris, Would you have submitted to the rule of Hitler and the Nazi government if you lived under that government ? To obey God, yes. But don't confuse 'submit' with 'participate in sin'. If the government said 'do this', and 'this' was a sin, we are called to abstain from that. In this case, we submit to the consequences that the government prescribes. Also, 'submitting' doesn't imply that we can sin simply because the act is legal according to the government. Don't forget Titus 3:1-3, " Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another." It goes against our natural tendencies; to submit to an authority which can itself be foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. Yet God calls us to submit to them and to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. We can't display humility if we can't submit to such an authority. |
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Post by Morris on Jan 3, 2012 11:53:26 GMT -5
When one assumes that the "world" mentioned in the verses you brought forth refers to a globalized world view, then one misses out entirely on the true meaning. It was the old covenant world of the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism. That world in which people were falling back to, that world which was passing away. The "end of all things" is associated with that world. Out of curiousity, and since we've been discussing John 17, when Jesus said " I do not pray that You should take them out of the world" (verse 15), what did He mean? Does "world" mean "the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism" in John 17? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Jan 3, 2012 15:40:52 GMT -5
Morris, Would you have submitted to the rule of Hitler and the Nazi government if you lived under that government ? To obey God, yes. But don't confuse 'submit' with 'participate in sin'. If the government said 'do this', and 'this' was a sin, we are called to abstain from that. In this case, we submit to the consequences that the government prescribes. Also, 'submitting' doesn't imply that we can sin simply because the act is legal according to the government. Don't forget Titus 3:1-3, " Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another." It goes against our natural tendencies; to submit to an authority which can itself be foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. Yet God calls us to submit to them and to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. We can't display humility if we can't submit to such an authority. Well said Morris. |
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Post by Morris on Jan 3, 2012 17:00:19 GMT -5
When one assumes that the "world" mentioned in the verses you brought forth refers to a globalized world view, then one misses out entirely on the true meaning. It was the old covenant world of the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism. That world in which people were falling back to, that world which was passing away. The "end of all things" is associated with that world. I had a few more observations pop up just now that I thought I should ask about. Matthew 24:14 " And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." My understanding of what some people believe this verse to be saying is that the gospel will be preached in 'all the Jewish/Israelite world' as a witness to all the 'tribes of Israel', and then the end will come. I admit that it sounds entirely plausible here. However, when I look at how this word is used elsewhere, it seems to only be a choice picking to use it this way. For instance, in Luke 2:1 it says, " And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered". Is this referring only to the Jews/Judea? In Acts 17, Paul comes across the altar to the unknown god, and then tells these Grecian men that God made the Jews and made the tribes of Israel of one blood; brags to them that only the Jews are God's offspring, yet they were ignorant of all this concerning themselves, and that God now tells the Jews everywhere to repent because Israel is about to be judged? Where is the relevance to the audience before him? He is addressing Greeks and other foreigners. According to Acts 19:27, " So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worship". Does this mean that all Israel worshiped the goddess Diana? Are these interpretable using Jews as the world? How would you interpret these? |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 3, 2012 18:43:37 GMT -5
With regards to this, Morris, Jesus also said it clearly that they would not have gone through all the cities of Israel before He came.
Just my preterist thinking going on here.
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Post by Morris on Jan 3, 2012 21:59:26 GMT -5
With regards to this, Morris, Jesus also said it clearly that they would not have gone through all the cities of Israel before He came. Indeed. Matthew 10:23, " When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." However, in Matthew 24:14, " And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Also, Acts 10:34-38, " Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." Colossians 1:23, " if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." This happens long before 70 AD, i.e. "the end", though the word was proclaimed to the children of Israel through the whole of Judea and/or 'the world' and to 'every creature under heaven'. If the 'world' (or 'every creature under heaven') means the Jews/Israel, and Jesus said that he would come before they had gone through all the cities of Israel, why is that scripture says the opposite?  |
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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 4, 2012 10:10:51 GMT -5
When one assumes that the "world" mentioned in the verses you brought forth refers to a globalized world view, then one misses out entirely on the true meaning. It was the old covenant world of the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism. That world in which people were falling back to, that world which was passing away. The "end of all things" is associated with that world. Out of curiousity, and since we've been discussing John 17, when Jesus said " I do not pray that You should take them out of the world" (verse 15), what did He mean? Does "world" mean "the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism" in John 17? Yes, Morris, that is my understanding. it can't be the known world (oikumene) and it can't be the planet (kosmos) |
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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 4, 2012 11:02:31 GMT -5
When one assumes that the "world" mentioned in the verses you brought forth refers to a globalized world view, then one misses out entirely on the true meaning. It was the old covenant world of the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism. That world in which people were falling back to, that world which was passing away. The "end of all things" is associated with that world. I had a few more observations pop up just now that I thought I should ask about. Matthew 24:14 " And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." My understanding of what some people believe this verse to be saying is that the gospel will be preached in 'all the Jewish/Israelite world' as a witness to all the 'tribes of Israel', and then the end will come. I admit that it sounds entirely plausible here. However, when I look at how this word is used elsewhere, it seems to only be a choice picking to use it this way. For instance, in Luke 2:1 it says, " And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered". Is this referring only to the Jews/Judea? Morris, it is choice picking to a degree. But to say that kosmos, or oikumene, or aion MUST ALWAYS be interpreted in only one manner would most surely be wrong. It also depends upon context. Surely you are aware that the Gospel had to be preached to all of the Jewish nations because it was to the Jew FIRST, right? Our interpretations must be harmonious to this thought. Matthew 24:14 uses oikumene (known world) Compare another Olivet Discourse to Matthew 24:14... Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be published among all nations. If you consider the Olivet Discourses of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to be in regard to the same event, then you should realize that the whole context of these passages are Jewish in nature. Matthew 24:1-3 - the temple Matthew 24:9 = Mark 13:9 (very important) Here is Mark 13:9: Mark 13:9 - But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. Matthew 24:15 - holy place, prophet Daniel Matthew 24:15 = Luke 21:20 (VERY IMPORTANT) Luke 21:20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Matthew 24:16 - Judea Matthew 24:20 - sabbath day Matthew 24:21 - beginning of the covenant world Matthew 24:22 - Jewish elect (not Calvin's elect) Matthew 24:23 - Christ Matthew 24:24 - false Christs, false prophets, elect Matthew 24:30 - tribes of the earth [land] Besides, didn't the apostle Paul also say that the Gospel had been preached to all the "world" in his day? Prophecy: Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Fulfillment: Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene]. Paul cannot possibly be speaking in regard to the whole planet as many others would suggest. It is obvious that the whole planet had not received the Gospel message and it is obvious that Paul did not lie about what he said. Therefore, what "world" was he referring to? Keeping in line with the original premise of "to the Jew first," it could easily be interpreted that the Gospel message was spread to all those associated with the old covenant world of Judaism among the known world...after all, the previous passage is definitely Jewish in scope and in nature. In Acts 17, Paul comes across the altar to the unknown god, and then tells these Grecian men that God made the Jews and made the tribes of Israel of one blood; brags to them that only the Jews are God's offspring, yet they were ignorant of all this concerning themselves, and that God now tells the Jews everywhere to repent because Israel is about to be judged? Where is the relevance to the audience before him? He is addressing Greeks and other foreigners. A little tougher to answer but at least he is sticking to the Jewish context. The fact that he uses a Jewish context is of great importance. Like you say, if these were non-Jews why would they even care? Let's look a little closer... Acts 17:16-17 - Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. It is of great interest to note that Paul was very concerned that Athens was wholly given to idolatry. Paul did something about it though. But what he did was also very interesting. He went to the synagogues which is a Jewish establishment!!! Why go there? To me, what Paul was saying about Jesus and the resurrection wasn't much different than Peter's Pentecost sermon. We all preach a Jewish Gospel to this day...but I am not an expert on this passage... quote author=morris board=introduceyourself thread=827 post=10033 time=1325628019]According to Acts 19:27, " So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worship". Does this mean that all Israel worshiped the goddess Diana? Are these interpretable using Jews as the world? How would you interpret these?[/quote] It is obvious that the whole "world" did NOT worship the goddess Diana because of: Acts 19:17 - And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
Acts 19:26 - Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: Demetrius was lying... |
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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 4, 2012 11:29:40 GMT -5
With regards to this, Morris, Jesus also said it clearly that they would not have gone through all the cities of Israel before He came. Indeed. Matthew 10:23, " When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." However, in Matthew 24:14, " And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Also, Acts 10:34-38, " Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." Colossians 1:23, " if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." This happens long before 70 AD, i.e. "the end", though the word was proclaimed to the children of Israel through the whole of Judea and/or 'the world' and to 'every creature under heaven'. If the 'world' (or 'every creature under heaven') means the Jews/Israel, and Jesus said that he would come before they had gone through all the cities of Israel, why is that scripture says the opposite? A very good question, Morris... In Matthew 10, Jesus is addressing 12 specific individuals: Matthew 10:2-6 - Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But in Acts 10, Peter admittedly says the Gospel had gone throughout all Judea. I hope we realize that it wasn't just these 12 men who were responsible for the spread of the Gospel message! The commission: Acts 1:8 - But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem[/b], and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. The "earth" does not mean planet. It means land. By Acts 10, only PART of the commission had been reached, There still was Samaria and the uttermost part of the earth. Jesus said that when the Gospel was preached to all the "world," the end would come. There would be no satisfying reason for a 2,000-year delay and then the end would come. The end comes just after the Gospel is preached in accordance with Acts 1:8. The apostle Paul (much later into his life and ministry) said that the Gospel had gone into all the earth, to all the nations, to every creature, and to all the world. See www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gospel-preached-to-all-the-world-before-70ad/The usual futurist interpretation is that the whole planet must be reached with the Gospel message before the end comes. Paul said that the Gospel WAS PREACHED to all the world, to every nation, to all creatures, and throughout the earth. In order for the futurist's theory to be correct, PAUL MUST HAVE LIED!!! Many of those 12 died way earlier than 70AD. I am fairly certain (but with no historic proof) that while these 12 were concentrating on the cities of Israel (or at least the ones of the 12 that were left), it was not possible that THEY would have finished. Others would have finished it for them. It seems Peter agreed. Therefore, these verses are not inconsistent with each other... And isn't the context of Matthew 10:23 regarding b]persecution[/b] more so than proclamation? |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 4, 2012 14:19:49 GMT -5
With regards to this, Morris, Jesus also said it clearly that they would not have gone through all the cities of Israel before He came. Indeed. Matthew 10:23, " When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." However, in Matthew 24:14, " And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Also, Acts 10:34-38, " Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." Colossians 1:23, " if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." This happens long before 70 AD, i.e. "the end", though the word was proclaimed to the children of Israel through the whole of Judea and/or 'the world' and to 'every creature under heaven'. If the 'world' (or 'every creature under heaven') means the Jews/Israel, and Jesus said that he would come before they had gone through all the cities of Israel, why is that scripture says the opposite? There is a difference in activity, Morris. One is actual preaching of the Gospel of Christ and the other is fleeing persecution. |
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Post by Morris on Jan 4, 2012 15:04:53 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, and since we've been discussing John 17, when Jesus said " I do not pray that You should take them out of the world" (verse 15), what did He mean? Does "world" mean "the apostate Jews - the world of Judaism" in John 17? Yes, Morris, that is my understanding. it can't be the known world (oikumene) and it can't be the planet (kosmos) This is interesting to me because in your next post you said "But to say that kosmos, or oikumene, or aion MUST ALWAYS be interpreted in only one manner would most surely be wrong". Why then do you do that very thing here? "Oikumene" does not directly mean "the known world", nor does "kosmos" mean planet. However, that isn't even the issue I was attempting to bring forward. The issue is that if "world" here refers to Judaism, Jesus says " I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world" (YLT). Jesus has no desire for them to come out of Judaism! If we take "world" to mean the Jews or Jewish nation, than Jesus says he does not pray for the Jews, and that His disciples are hated by the Jews because they are not of the Jews; but they are. Does anybody see the quandary here? Jesus, in verse 16, says that they are 'not out of the world' even as He 'is not out of the world'. But in verse 11 He says, 'no longer am I in the world'. I can not make world mean Judaism or Jew in this passage. If we take "world" here to mean its actual meaning, it is easy to see that they are in the 'kingdoms and nations of the earth and among its inhabitants', but that they are not of these kingdoms because they are citizens in the Kingdom of Heaven/God. I don't know why "oikumene" and "kosmos" are redefined on the basis of a modern, planetary concept-thinking of "world". It is as if "world" is given this wooden literal meaning and then rejected because of that. (Out of time at the moment. I'll reply to your other posts as soon as I can. I hope I didn't rush this too quickly.) |
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