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Post by Allyn on Jan 11, 2011 17:30:53 GMT -5
Allyn! Very interesting. That is something I have never really noticed or caught on to before (despite reading it). Very interesting |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 11, 2011 17:53:33 GMT -5
TO ALL:
I repeat this for the sake of reminder. Note that "David" in Ezekiel 37 begins to reign over Ezekiel's contemporaries and their children and their children's children. God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM that David would reign over THEM anf THEIR children and THEIR children's children:
Again, God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM what would be true regarding THEM that David would reign over THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children.
Fulfilled before Christ!
Roo
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Post by Allyn on Jan 11, 2011 18:32:18 GMT -5
TO ALL: I repeat this for the sake of reminder. Note that "David" in Ezekiel 37 begins to reign over Ezekiel's contemporaries and their children and their children's children. God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM that David would reign over THEM anf THEIR children and THEIR children's children: Again, God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM what would be true regarding THEM that David would reign over THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children. Fulfilled before Christ! Roo At most david reigned over 2 generations of people but his house and dynasty ruled beyond that. Jesus was depicted as the son of david whose reign would be forever so I think we can extend this on beyond David and still call Ezekiel fulfilled. |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 11, 2011 19:03:12 GMT -5
I've only been halfheartedly following this, so apologies. But, is the problem that, if Ezekiel's prophecy addressed to "them" can mean also distant future (to them) fulfillment, then Jesus addressing his contemporaries can also have distant future fulfillment? Is the issue that of maintaining a preterist hermeneutic?
If I'm off in La-La Land, it's OK to say so. I just woke up from a nap.
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 11, 2011 19:10:49 GMT -5
Allyn wrote:
David was the collective succession of princes which reigned over them, their children and their children's children ( "princes" plural, 45:8). Collectively they were simply called "David."
Illustration:
"David My servant" (collectively, 37:24)
"Jacob My servant" (collectively, 37:25)
Roo
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Post by Allyn on Jan 11, 2011 19:12:12 GMT -5
I made the statement that I believe all of Ezekiel to be done and I do believe that. But I also understand that some did not become done until the NT time when the Gospel of Christ began to go forth and some had a dual fulfillment where the vision of Ezekiel pertained to both his contemporaries and the church. 2 Cor. 6:16 would be one of those in which the faithful remnant of Israel saw its fulfillment in their stedfastness to God and in the Church where its definition alone describes us as His people.
Prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:3 "And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:"
Fulfillment:
John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
Prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:14 "And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live"
Fulfillment:
2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."
Prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:17 "And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."
Fulfillment:
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Ephesians 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."
Prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:24 "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them, and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. "
Fulfillment:
Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
John 10:16 "they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore."
Fulfillment:
Hebrews 13:20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"
Hebrews 8:1 "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. "
Prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Fulfillment:
2 Corinthians 6:16 "for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 11, 2011 19:15:49 GMT -5
I've only been halfheartedly following this, so apologies. But, is the problem that, if Ezekiel's prophecy addressed to "them" can mean also distant future (to them) fulfillment, then Jesus addressing his contemporaries can also have distant future fulfillment? Is the issue that of maintaining a preterist hermeneutic? If I'm off in La-La Land, it's OK to say so. I just woke up from a nap. God seems to distinguish from "them" and their children and their grand children. So I can't see "them" as having reference to distant generations. The language is, " them, and their children and their children's children." Roo |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 11, 2011 19:19:10 GMT -5
Allyn, I will reply to your most recent post tomorrow. All I will say now is that there was a pouring out of the Spirit in Ezekiel's own time.  Roo |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 11, 2011 21:01:34 GMT -5
I made the statement that I believe all of Ezekiel to be done and I do believe that. But I also understand that some did not become done until the NT time when the Gospel of Christ began to go forth and some had a dual fulfillment where the vision of Ezekiel pertained to both his contemporaries and the church. 2 Cor. 6:16 would be one of those in which the faithful remnant of Israel saw its fulfillment in their stedfastness to God and in the Church where its definition alone describes us as His people. Allyn, I don't get it. First you tell me that it was all fulfilled before Christ in agreement with Roo and now you say differently and now hold to the view which I hold to.  Could it be that you misunderstood what I was saying in the first place? And those dry bones of Ezekiel 37 is a "before Christ fulfillment" killer...IMO |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 11, 2011 21:14:50 GMT -5
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Post by mellontes on Jan 11, 2011 21:26:30 GMT -5
1. Ted sees all of Ezekiel fulfilled 2. Roo sees all of Ezekiel fulfilled 3. Allyn sees all of Ezekiel fulfilled A. Ted sees all of Ezekiel fulfilled by 70 AD B. Roo sees all of Ezekiel fulfilled BEFORE CHRIST"S FIRST ADVENT C. Allyn sees all fo Ezekiel fulfilled when ??The issue has always been WHEN... |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 11, 2011 21:32:45 GMT -5
Part is ongoing I suppose. As long as the church is here so is some of Ezekiel with regards to the church. Fulfilled does not always equate done and nothing more.
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Post by mellontes on Jan 11, 2011 22:35:48 GMT -5
Part is ongoing I suppose. As long as the church is here so is some of Ezekiel with regards to the church. Fulfilled does not always equate done and nothing more. I agree and hold to that as well, but the question remains, "When did the prophecies of Ezekiel ALL come to pass? 1. Before Christ's first advent 2. After Christ's first advent and before 70 AD Brian Simmons used to say "fulfilled" meant "filled full", as in complete, nothing else going forward. That is nonsense. It would only apply to a split trillionth of a nanosecond which would still be too long. A lot of futurists naysayers use that definition in saying that preterists must be crazy to believe that all prophecy came to a stop at 70 AD. See the distinction? And there are some hyperpreterists who do believe that all prophecy came to a sudden complete stop at 70 AD and there is no ongoing fulfillment - like Christ's substitutionary work for instance.. |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 12, 2011 7:37:02 GMT -5
I believe that the prophecies of Ezekiel have found their fulfillment and that fulfillment was by 70AD. And , as I have said, some are now a part of Christian life which is the abundant life we enjoy, such as the kingdom of God.
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 12, 2011 9:34:34 GMT -5
Allyn wrote:
Allyn,
The expression "My spirit" in Ezekiel seems to be defined as the new spirit God would give the house of Israel, that is, a new disposition toward Him.
In chapter 11 God said that he would give them a new pirit
In chapter 36 the new spirit is simply called "My spirit"
Note that I put the word "spirit" in the lower case because I believe the upper case creates confusion. The "new spirit" of verse 26 is the new disposition put into them and which comes from God. Thus it is called "My spirit" in verse 37 because it comes from God.
So I see the expression "My spirit" in 37:14 as a reference to the new spirit or disposition toward God which was put in them by God.
I doubt that "My spirit" is a reference to the Holy Spirit.
Roo
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Post by Once4all on Jan 12, 2011 11:18:50 GMT -5
Allyn wrote: David was the collective succession of princes which reigned over them, their children and their children's children ( "princes" plural, 45:8). Collectively they were simply called "David." Illustration: "David My servant" (collectively, 37:24) "Jacob My servant" (collectively, 37:25) Roo This includes Jesus, as well. |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 12, 2011 11:22:40 GMT -5
Allyn wrote: Allyn, The expression "My spirit" in Ezekiel seems to be defined as the new spirit God would give the house of Israel, that is, a new disposition toward Him. In chapter 11 God said that he would give them a new pirit In chapter 36 the new spirit is simply called "My spirit" Note that I put the word "spirit" in the lower case because I believe the upper case creates confusion. The " new spirit" of verse 26 is the new disposition put into them and which comes from God. Thus it is called "My spirit" in verse 37 because it comes from God. So I see the expression "My spirit" in 37:14 as a reference to the new spirit or disposition toward God which was put in them by God. I doubt that "My spirit" is a reference to the Holy Spirit. Roo In my view, one and the same spirit. |
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Post by Morris on Jan 12, 2011 11:41:39 GMT -5
Note that I put the word "spirit" in the lower case because I believe the upper case creates confusion. The " new spirit" of verse 26 is the new disposition put into them and which comes from God. Thus it is called "My spirit" in verse 37 because it comes from God. So I see the expression "My spirit" in 37:14 as a reference to the new spirit or disposition toward God which was put in them by God. I doubt that "My spirit" is a reference to the Holy Spirit. Roo Romans 7:6 " But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." But regardless, how can a spirit from God, one that God claims as His, be placed WITHIN us and still not be considered God's? Another one to add to Allyn's list; Ezekiel 37:23 " They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God." Commented on in Titus 2:14 "[our great God and Savior Jesus Christ] gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 12, 2011 12:28:46 GMT -5
Another one to add to Allyn's list;
Morris wrote:
The fulfillment of the prophecy was to begin with Ezekiel's own contemporaries and to continue to their children and their grand children. So we can be assured that they did not defile the themselves because of God's promise. Yet the generation of Jesus defiled the themselves. Therefore, the generation of Jesus was not included in the the scope of the prophecy and it was fulfilled before Christ.
Roo
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Post by Morris on Jan 12, 2011 13:00:16 GMT -5
Another one to add to Allyn's list; Morris wrote: The fulfillment of the prophecy was to begin with Ezekiel's own contemporaries and to continue to their children and their grand children. So we can be assured that they did not defile the themselves because of God's promise. Yet the generation of Jesus defiled the themselves. Therefore, the generation of Jesus was not included in the the scope of the prophecy and it was fulfilled before Christ. Roo And yet Ezekiel 37:23 says they will not defile themselves "with their detestable things". The only other time this exact word is used in the OT is in Isaiah 66:3 which says, " He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck; He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood; He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations." I think that this speaks volumes considering the two contexts. But hey, that's just how I see it. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 12, 2011 13:14:11 GMT -5
Morris wrote:
You speak about that which is indicative of the time while ignoring the timing itself. Ezekiel 37 clearly indicates that God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM something. That is that the prophecies had reference THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children.
The prophecies did not include Christ's generation or any generation after Him. In fact, the house of Israel was made "desolate" in ad70.
Roo
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Post by mellontes on Jan 12, 2011 13:25:53 GMT -5
In fact, the house of Israel was made "desolate" in ad70. Roo So, what is your point in saying that? We agree as well...the old house was gone. The Israel of God was in (Jew and Gentile). |
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Post by Morris on Jan 12, 2011 14:17:54 GMT -5
You speak about that which is indicative of the time while ignoring the timing itself. Ezekiel 37 clearly indicates that God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM something. That is that the prophecies had reference THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children. The prophecies did not include Christ's generation or any generation after Him. In fact, the house of Israel was made "desolate" in ad70. Roo Therefore, are we then to say that Christ was not the one about whom Moses wrote when he said, " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren... And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 12, 2011 15:12:22 GMT -5
You speak about that which is indicative of the time while ignoring the timing itself. Ezekiel 37 clearly indicates that God told Ezekiel to go to the people and tell THEM something. That is that the prophecies had reference THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children. The prophecies did not include Christ's generation or any generation after Him. In fact, the house of Israel was made "desolate" in ad70. Roo Therefore, are we then to say that Christ was not the one about whom Moses wrote when he said, " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren... And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." What has this to do with the fact that God told Ezekiel to go TO THE PEOPLE and tell THEM that He would give THEM His spirit (a new spirit) and that David would reign over THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children? Is this a fair question? Roo |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 12, 2011 16:40:23 GMT -5
What has this to do with the fact that God told Ezekiel to go TO THE PEOPLE and tell THEM that He would give THEM His spirit (a new spirit) and that David would reign over THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children? Is this a fair question? Roo But may I ask WHICH DAVID you are talking about? |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 13, 2011 6:01:55 GMT -5
What has this to do with the fact that God told Ezekiel to go TO THE PEOPLE and tell THEM that He would give THEM His spirit (a new spirit) and that David would reign over THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children? Is this a fair question? Roo But may I ask WHICH DAVID you are talking about? The succession of princes of the Davidic line. Roo |
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Post by Morris on Jan 13, 2011 11:23:30 GMT -5
Therefore, are we then to say that Christ was not the one about whom Moses wrote when he said, " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren... And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." What has this to do with the fact that God told Ezekiel to go TO THE PEOPLE and tell THEM that He would give THEM His spirit (a new spirit) and that David would reign over THEM and THEIR children and THEIR children's children? Is this a fair question? Roo As far as I can tell you are saying the message had to be fulfilled to the people because it was directed TO them. The passage I gave in Deuteronomy is a similar case. A message was given TO the people and it was for those people. Yet, we are told in the NT that it was actually for people far separated in time. A prophet would be raised for them, from among them, that would speak to them, and they were to listen. If this was said here "for them" and yet not intended to be fulfilled "to them", how can we assume that a prophecy spoken to someone must be fulfilled to them solely and exclusively? If God told Moses that a prophet would come to them, but then reveal that by "a prophet" He meant the Christ and that He would not appear for many centuries, why is it not possible that when God told Ezekiel His Spirit would come to them He did not refer to His own indwelling Spirit a few centuries later, again as revealed later? |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 13, 2011 11:56:53 GMT -5
It is a very fair question.But may I ask WHICH DAVID you are talking about? The succession of princes of the Davidic line. Roo I must have missed the part where it said "succession." My Bible just says David. It also says all generations. The only one capable of that would be Jesus Christ. And the dry bones of Israel, it seems to you, have no meaning whatsoever in the restoration of Israel in the context of resurrection, i.e. the book of Acts? Is this correct? |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 16, 2011 14:02:18 GMT -5
Ted wrote:
The name "David" may be used to refer to the princely line of David. We know that "David" refers to the succession of princes because of the plural reference to "princes" and also because the son of each prince takes over. Therefore, the succession of Davidic princes is IMPLIED:
Author Harry Whittaker correctly says that Ezekiel cannot have a future fulfillment and that the "prince" is a succession of princes:
A succession of Davidic princes is implied in the statement that the prince will beget a son who will beget a son, etc. (45:8).
Ted wrote:
Absolutely not! David cannot be Christ. The prince (David) will be required to offer a sacrifice for his own sins.
Do you believe that Christ will be required to offer a sin offering for Himself as well as for the people?
I have already pointed out these things. Are you not paying attention? Are you really a Partial Pret? I ask because you show some Futurist tendencies regarding Ezekiel.
Roo
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 16, 2011 14:27:22 GMT -5
Morris wrote:
It says that God would regather them who had ALREADY been scattered and that David would reign over THEM.
Show a statement in the New testament which says, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Ezekiel." Jesus and the Apostles were totally silent regarding Ezekiel's prophecies except for the general principle about God dwelling with His people which is also stated in other non-prophetic portions of the scriptures. Jesus and the Apostles were silent because Ezekiel's visions had been fulfilled before they were born. Chapter 12 explicitly says that the fulfillment of EVERY vision as "AT HAND."
Roo
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