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Post by kangaroojack on Nov 6, 2010 10:54:18 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply, Robin.  I've been feeling invisible lately. Hi Bev, I have been replying to you on the monogenes thread. I just took a little longer on the last one. Roo |
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Post by Once4all on Nov 6, 2010 13:25:51 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply, Robin. I've been feeling invisible lately. Hi Bev, I have been replying to you on the monogenes thread. I just took a little longer on the last one. Roo Thanks, Roo. It wasn't you personally I was referring to, just things in general. My new threads weren't getting any bites, but I suppose that could be because the topic is controversial. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Nov 6, 2010 17:02:57 GMT -5
Hi Bev, I have been replying to you on the monogenes thread. I just took a little longer on the last one. Roo Thanks, Roo. It wasn't you personally I was referring to, just things in general. My new threads weren't getting any bites, but I suppose that could be because the topic is controversial. That happens. There are many threads on this board by others that did not get any bites. On boards before this there were topics on which I did not get bites. Roo |
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Post by didymus on Nov 7, 2010 8:27:36 GMT -5
See what happens when you have computer problems, someone starts a thread like this one. I have scanned it. I have not read it word for word. So if these points have already been made, which I doubt as no one has a mind like mine, then forgive me. I believe it was Roo that said the only the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross and not the moral. As usual, I must disagree. And, I base it on Matthew 5,6,7. In some of His comments, Jesus made statements like, "You have heard of old..............., but I tell you." For example, in Matthew 5.27-28 it is written, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." - NKJV Here we see the old law that will be nailed to the cross, and the new law, the law of Christ, that will be in force after the death of Christ. The old law was a law unto the flesh, but the law of Christ unto the heart.  |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Nov 7, 2010 11:22:14 GMT -5
I think you have a point there Didy. The old law was about a conformity to right behavior but could not affect the heart for the change it needed. There was no power given to do right while sin was being ruled by that law. It only worked to condemn the sinner which showed him the need he had for a power that was not inherently his own. His sanctification was merely cermonial and external. This was the struggle Paul mentioned he had whereby he knew what right was by the law but had no power to perform that which was good without sin being right there too. The liberty we are under by the law of Christ, is that which works righteousness by grace thru love. A heart that loves does not need to be reminded not to steal, cheat, commit adultery, etc., because those desires are overturned by love so that he can now do the good he knows and that with a willing heart. A heart converted by love finds the strength his will needs because the power working in him is not his own!
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Post by Morris on Nov 8, 2010 12:21:20 GMT -5
Those were great posts, Didy and Robin. Even the "moral code" was nailed to the cross in that it went from being 'externally act based' to 'internally heart based' - from written in stone to written in hearts of flesh. This was always God's intention for the law.
However, it is also important to understand (in my view, that is) that even in the old testament, the law of actions and behavior also was intended to show the inadequacy of the human heart to be the kind of pureness that God desires. So, just because the law said "do not do these things" doesn't mean it wasn't intended from the beginning to mean "your heart should not feel these things".
In fact, it explicitly mentions the connection of God's commands and statues with the person's heart.
Leviticus 19:17
"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him."
Deuteronomy 6:5,6
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart"
Deuteronomy 10:12
"And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?
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Post by MoGrace2U on Nov 8, 2010 13:12:36 GMT -5
Hi Morris,
It is also noteworthy that in the OT doing good was stressed as the means by which evil would be overcome and sin kept at bay. But sin could return and the curse of the law with it (see Daniel and his words to king Neb). This has changed for us now as well, in that when doing good, our fruit remains with no sin to taint it nor curse to destroy it. We can keep doing good works in that hope .
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Post by Morris on Nov 9, 2010 12:01:51 GMT -5
Hi Morris, It is also noteworthy that in the OT doing good was stressed as the means by which evil would be overcome and sin kept at bay. But sin could return and the curse of the law with it (see Daniel and his words to king Neb). This has changed for us now as well, in that when doing good, our fruit remains with no sin to taint it nor curse to destroy it. We can keep doing good works in that hope . Indeed! |
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Post by kangaroojack on Nov 9, 2010 12:47:46 GMT -5
See what happens when you have computer problems, someone starts a thread like this one. I have scanned it. I have not read it word for word. So if these points have already been made, which I doubt as no one has a mind like mine, then forgive me. I believe it was Roo that said the only the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross and not the moral. As usual, I must disagree. And, I base it on Matthew 5,6,7. In some of His comments, Jesus made statements like, "You have heard of old..............., but I tell you." For example, in Matthew 5.27-28 it is written, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." - NKJV Here we see the old law that will be nailed to the cross, and the new law, the law of Christ, that will be in force after the death of Christ. The old law was a law unto the flesh, but the law of Christ unto the heart. You're wrong didy! The 'laws' that were nailed to the cross in Colossians were called the 'shadows' of which Christ is the substance. It was the ceremonial laws that were the shadows. Paul clearly said that he was talking about the external ordinances being nailed to the cross. It explicitly says that it was the written ordinances that were blotted out. Furthermore, Paul said that we were set free from the moral law in order that we might serve it in the newness of the spirit (Romans 7:6). But the ceremonial law was blotted out altogether and we are not to serve it in any form whatsoever. Try again. Roo |
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Post by Morris on Nov 9, 2010 14:48:26 GMT -5
It explicitly says that it was the written ordinances that were blotted out. Which ordinances were not written? |
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Post by kangaroojack on Nov 9, 2010 15:27:22 GMT -5
It explicitly says that it was the written ordinances that were blotted out. Which ordinances were not written? Come on! The ordinances were the external regulations. Did you pay attention to my point that Paul said that the ordinances that were nailed to the cross were the shadows of which Christ was the substance? It was the external regulations that were the shadows. The moral laws were not shadows. I am beginning to think that many Preterists want to trash the moral law. Roo |
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Post by Morris on Nov 9, 2010 17:00:04 GMT -5
I am beginning to think that many Preterists want to trash the moral law. Roo I am not a Preterist, but I believe that Christ also nailed the moral law to the cross by fulfilling it. The Law (in it's entirety) has been nailed to the cross. The external aspects have passed from being mere shadows now that Christ, the body that cast those shadows, has come. The moral aspects have also passed from being statutes of condemnation and death for us, to being fulfilled in Christ and by us who are in Christ. God said the external regulations were to be " a statute forever", and they are. They are now nailed to the work of Christ where He has eternally fulfilled them. Similarly, the sinless standard of the law has also been nailed to the work of Christ where He lived a sinless life. In essence, the law has gone from being imposed upon us (where it condemned us) to being imposed upon Christ (where He fulfills it). Thus, we are no longer under the law but under Christ, and so we rest in Him. What the ceremonies represented is found in Christ. What the heart towards God should look like is found in Christ. When we submit to Him the entire law is no longer applied to us, or perhaps as a better picture, the law is only applied to us by it going through Christ first. We are no longer judged by what we eat or drink, or by new moons or Sabbaths, and it is the love of God which Christ has given us that perfectly fulfills the law. All aspects of the law are forever fulfilled in Christ and nailed to His work, the cross, which we rest in. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Nov 9, 2010 21:38:02 GMT -5
Morris wrote:
If it was the moral law that was nailed to the cross and "taken out of the way," then nobody before the cross could have been justified in the sight of God. It was not the moral law that created the emnity between men. It was the ceremonial laws which created the emnity and it was the removal of them that created the peace.
The "middle wall of separation" is expressly said to be the "commandments contained in ordinances." The Jews were not the covenant people because they had the moral law for all men had the moral law. They were the covenant people by virtue of the ceremonial laws which kept other men out.
I repeat: It was NOT the moral law which kept other men out of the covenant. It was the ceremonial laws that kept them out. It was the removal of the ceremonial laws that brought all men together thus making peace.
Morris:
Paul was not talking about God not judging us. He was saying to let 'no man' judge us. In other words, if you were to treat every day the same and a Jew judged you for not regarding a certain day as holy, then you are not to let him judge you for it. Paul said, "Let no man judge you."
Paul said that it was the ceremonial laws that had been 'taken out of the way.' It was the external regulations that created the emnity and not the moral law for all men had the moral law. Thus it was the removal of those regulations that created peace.
Roo
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