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Baptism
Aug 24, 2010 18:21:52 GMT -5
Post by Allyn on Aug 24, 2010 18:21:52 GMT -5
My time is limited but I think it is worth my while to look closely at at this Baptism issue from your angle. Not to say I am giving in to it but I am always open to the truth no matter how it does me in. I'm not seeing how Roo's statement about the abolishment of the OT ordinances has anything to do with baptism into Christ. Allyn, can you help me? You seem to be seeing something that I am not. We know that John's baptism for repentance was being preached to the Jews, but Christ's baptism extended beyond that. Is the great commission only for Jews? I don't see it either, But I wouldn't mind looking into the Israel thing he brought up. As far as I believe (and will continue to believe) water baptism is an ordinance for the church for ever as long as the church comes and goes in the flesh. I can see nothing to take that away. |
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Baptism
Aug 24, 2010 19:45:49 GMT -5
Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 24, 2010 19:45:49 GMT -5
... The teachings today are that we non-Israelite believers are the Bride, when it is that we are the children who have come from this union and thus share in their inheritance which is Christ. Robin, I've never heard this before. Do you have some scriptural support for it? Well here is two that suggest not all are the Bride: John the Baptist: John 3:29 - He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Are we not among those who have heard and give the same call? |
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Baptism
Aug 24, 2010 23:29:02 GMT -5
Post by Once4all on Aug 24, 2010 23:29:02 GMT -5
Robin, I've never heard this before. Do you have some scriptural support for it? Well here is two that suggest not all are the Bride: John the Baptist: John 3:29 - He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Are we not among those who have heard and give the same call? Thanks, Robin. In John 3:29, John the Baptist seems to be speaking of himself as "the friend of the bridegroom." At least that's my impression. Revelation 22:17 makes me think of this type of situation: John 4:28-29 NASB (28) So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men, (29) " Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?" And possibly this one: John 1:45-46 NASB (45) Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." (46) Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, " Come and see." |
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Baptism
Aug 27, 2010 16:01:54 GMT -5
Post by kangaroojack on Aug 27, 2010 16:01:54 GMT -5
I'm not seeing how Roo's statement about the abolishment of the OT ordinances has anything to do with baptism into Christ. Allyn, can you help me? You seem to be seeing something that I am not. We know that John's baptism for repentance was being preached to the Jews, but Christ's baptism extended beyond that. Is the great commission only for Jews? I don't see it either, But I wouldn't mind looking into the Israel thing he brought up. As far as I believe (and will continue to believe) water baptism is an ordinance for the church for ever as long as the church comes and goes in the flesh. I can see nothing to take that away. Bev and Allyn, God was justifying Gentiles apart from their having any knowledge of baptism. Therefore, baptism was not an absolute necessity and could be discarded. Hebrews chapters 6 & 9 indicate that baptism was on its way out for good. I put the abolition of baptism at the destruction of the temple (ch. 9) when the apostles finished their Jew first mandate. This is why I say that baptism was gone by the time the apostles brought Christ to the Gentiles. Roo |
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Baptism
Aug 27, 2010 16:12:14 GMT -5
Post by Allyn on Aug 27, 2010 16:12:14 GMT -5
I don't see it either, But I wouldn't mind looking into the Israel thing he brought up. As far as I believe (and will continue to believe) water baptism is an ordinance for the church for ever as long as the church comes and goes in the flesh. I can see nothing to take that away. Bev and Allyn, God was justifying Gentiles apart from their having any knowledge of baptism. Therefore, baptism was not an absolute necessity and could be discarded. Hebrews chapters 6 & 9 indicate that baptism was on its way out for good. I put the abolition of baptism at the destruction of the temple (ch. 9) when the apostles finished their Jew first mandate. This is why I say that baptism was gone by the time the apostles brought Christ to the Gentiles. Roo I would like to see your understanding of what justifying was. |
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Baptism
Aug 27, 2010 17:17:41 GMT -5
Post by kangaroojack on Aug 27, 2010 17:17:41 GMT -5
Bev and Allyn, God was justifying Gentiles apart from their having any knowledge of baptism. Therefore, baptism was not an absolute necessity and could be discarded. Hebrews chapters 6 & 9 indicate that baptism was on its way out for good. I put the abolition of baptism at the destruction of the temple (ch. 9) when the apostles finished their Jew first mandate. This is why I say that baptism was gone by the time the apostles brought Christ to the Gentiles. Roo I would like to see your understanding of what justifying was. Justification was when God counted a man's faith as righteousness resulting in that man being called "the friend of God." Old covenant justifying faith was accompanied by the man's works. New covenant faith is not but is based in the finished works of Christ alone. Before new covenant faith came the Jews were justified by their obedience to the gospel which mandated baptism. Gentiles were justified by their obedience to the revelation of God in nature apart from any knowledge of baptism. New covenant faith came when God revealed it to Paul: Paul said that the righteousness (justification) of God "is being revealed out of faith into faith." God through Paul was bringing the Jew first out of old covenant faith which included obedience to baptism and into new covenant faith which is on the basis of Christ's works alone. After Paul's "Jew first" mandate was completed he began to bring the Gentiles out of the faith that was based in the revelation of God in nature. This corresponded to the old covenant faith of the Jew. But this did not include baptism. Paul gave the Gentiles the same new covenant word of faith he gave to the Jew. This new covenant word of faith is apart from ALL works including baptism and all other external regulations. Baptism was "for the remission of sins" which made it an old covenant work. Christ ascended into the heavanly sanctuary and accomplished the sprinkling on the altar which was for the remission of sins. "For without the effusion of blood there is no remission." Once Christ completed the remission of sins in our behalf baptism was rendered useless and was therefore discarded. Justifying faith now is obedience to this rule! Roo |
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