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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 9, 2010 9:24:56 GMT -5
Because of the recent furor over Covenant Creation and the BCS nonsense, I have been pouring over Genesis myself - comparing the KJV and LXX with the Hebrew and Greek texts. The LXX was translated by the Hebrews into Greek and it gives us how they understood it from the Hebrew before the NT was written. If anyone else is interested in doing this, I would appreciate some input. But first an overview of what I am seeing.
The way Ch 1 is laid out is to give us what God created in each of the 6 days before He rested on the 7th. Then Ch 2 tells us about God's dealings with Adam.
We commonly accept that the 'man' created in the image of God in Ch 1 is referring to Adam, but is it? This 'mankind' that was created in the 6th day is one made in the image AND likeness of God. That 'man' God created is both male and female. Then this mankind is given dominion over all the creation that God had made and ordered to see to it that the creation is fruitful and multiplies as God had commanded and to see that the earth is filled. This is the HOST of the creation.
Now the LXX uses the Greek word cosmos, but the Hebrew word for host(s) is saba and it means service or servants, it is also used for the army the Lord of Hosts rules be they men or angels. But here, this is the angelic host who God created which completes His creative work BEFORE Adam is formed from the dust in Ch 2.
This is important for a couple of reasons. It explains how Satan is the ruler of this world (Eph 2:2; 6:12) . There is also some insight I gleaned from Ezek 28 as to how there is a 'prince' of Tyre who will die as a man, and a 'king' of Tyre who fell from heaven that is ruling in the prince who is doing this evil.
The angels were given dominion in the world in the heavenly realm, but God was to rule over Adam. And when Satan appears in the Garden in the form of the serpent, this is how the serpent's 'seed' - who is Satan indwelling him, is set at enmity with the seed of the woman which is her offspring.
In Ch 2 when we see God form Adam from the dust and breathe life into him, Adam is then referred to as the man God made from the dust (Gen 2:8,15 LXX). This sets a contrast for us that shows it is not the same mankind which was made after the image and likeness of God. Adam was specifically created to till the ground while the angels were created to oversee that God's commands were carried out. God even made a Garden just for Adam, and Adam is given the charge over it. Adam is also given a dominion in his naming of all God's creatures but the purpose for his creation is to do the work in the earth.
It is only after the 7th day that it is specifically said that there was not a man to till the ground (Gen 2:5). In fact we are shown that the earth was set to take care of itself as to the watering from a spring (no rain yet). So we are being shown the 2 types of 'men' who God created, one would rule in the heavenlies and the other in the earth. Adam is thus the one who is suitable to bear the image of God in the earthly realm. But not because his clay-like form has the likeness of God. All that God creates declares His glory!
What I see for an application in the CC view is what was depicted on the walls of the tabernacle & temple. A model of the heavens & earth in the day they were created whereby the heavenly Eden and the Paradise Garden were connected by the Holy of Holies. The portal if you will, between the two realms that God created. Which Adam because of his flesh and blood, was prevented from entering into Eden, though God came into the Garden to walk with him. The Garden was set to the East of Eden - which is the direction the temple faced. And the Lord was to come into the temple from the east of it - from the world. The cherubim was set at the entrance to the Garden, which Adam's death kept him from accessing the tree of life that is in that Garden. The temple imagery has much to help us understand what all happened in the day the Lord made the H & E and how Adam was to be given access to heaven, after his judgment in the Paradise - which is where the dead were raised to first - before being given access to the Kingdom of God.
Any comments?
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 9, 2010 9:55:01 GMT -5
One of the things I see above in how the Hebrew develops its themes and then makes a different application, concerns the sons of God, the daughters of men and the Nephilim who were giants in the earth.
Sons of God are often seen as being angels, but the elect of God are also called sons of God. (Both are called to come before the Lord.) The first mention of these sons appears after we are given the geneaology of Seth's line. Prior to that, we were given the sons of Cain - but only up to Lamech. (I have a post about this somewhere.) So it makes sense that only those who serve the Lord can be called this. Whereas the daughters of men are not the elect of God but come from the line of Cain in the earth.
This cohabiting of the elect with the non-elect spread corruption and violence in all the earth. When we are told about Lamech, we are shown that he was a murderer like his father and proud of it, and that is where Cain's line stops being recorded. The devil was a murderer from the beginning and Cain's line was serving the devil. Whether these daughters of men were actually possessed by devils or not, certainly their idolatry is in view.
And the Nephilim which were in the earth were the mighty men who were ruling in the earth by violence. That is how such men could appear again from Noah's line after the flood. That they were physically 'giants' is not the issue, whereas the nature of such men is.
It was after all Noah's sons who built the tower of Babel and we ought to see how God kept His sons while the others corrupted themselves thru their own unbelief and idolatry. God wanted men to fill the earth and the plan was to scatter them. The men at Babel wanted to prevent this, yet knew that was the plan. They did not believe God's promise to Noah that He would not send a flood again. So they built this idol tower as a means to survive such a calamity. I like how God managed to scatter them anyway thru their own fear of each other. God keeps His word. If they had a right fear of God, they would have believed Him!
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Post by Morris on Aug 9, 2010 10:14:09 GMT -5
It should be kept in mind that the Book of Genesis is a collection of books; something not everybody realizes. That is why we see a bit of repeating events in the first couple chapters and a different focusing of details.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 9, 2010 11:05:50 GMT -5
I agree, that the Hebrew style is one of repetition AND expansion.  |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 9, 2010 15:59:19 GMT -5
Robin, great stuff! I can't absorb it all right now. My mind and life have been in overdrive recently, so I'm finding it hard to concentrate on any one thing sufficiently to give it the consideration it needs. However, I agree with you regarding the sons of God and daughters of men. And you know what's funny? We all recognize from NT scripture that "sons of God" includes both men and women ("you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus"-Galatians 3:26, and that "there is neither male nor female"-Galatians 3:28), but no one stops to consider that "daughters of men" may also be inclusive of males and females! This realization has bearing on so much!
Daughter, in this case, is used as the "opposite" of son, as evil is the opposite of good, and darkness is the opposite of light.
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Post by didymus on Aug 9, 2010 19:55:16 GMT -5
Morris pointed out the repetitious nature of the first 2 chapters of Genesis. Genesis 1 & 2 are not to be interpreted chronologically. Notice verse 4 & 5 of chapter 2. "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground." - NKJV I think it is plain that this is a reaccounting of the creation, with greater emphasis being put on the creation of man on day 6. By this accounting, Adam and Eve was the first man and woman created by God. This gives absolutlely no credibility at all to the BCS/CC crowd.  - tea anyone |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 9, 2010 20:32:54 GMT -5
Below is a post I made to CARM back in May of 2006:
Genesis 1
11 Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 2
5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.
6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
I see two explanations, and they may both be true.
1. In Genesis 1, plants were created with the ability to reproduce (with the seed in them), and Genesis 2 is simply saying that the seed had not yet produced additional plants (beyond the original creation of them).
2. I think that the absence of a man "to cultivate the ground" is a huge clue to the meaning of Genesis 2 regarding no shrub "of the field" being not yet "in the earth" and no plant "of the field" had yet sprouted. It is obviously referring to farming. You see, right after these two verses in Genesis 2, God planted a garden (vs. 8). Then we are told in verse 15, Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
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It was a couple years after this that I would encounter the idea from G.K. Beale that the garden and Adam's commission to cultivate and keep it was early temple terminology.
Something else that just occurred to me is that cultivating is causing something specific to grow and flourish, instead of letting the weeds of the wild grow where they wish and choking out what you desire to grow. (Think of the Word, think of godly behavior vs. carnal behavior, think of growing in grace and overcoming the world.)
Bev
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Aug 9, 2010 22:10:44 GMT -5
I don't think God cuts covenants with animals. However we know he does with people. And we can all see that there are many places where people are referred to as all kinds of animals.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 10, 2010 22:26:26 GMT -5
Well whoever Carol Hill it is always good to hear that others see the same things in the scripture.
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Post by Morris on Aug 11, 2010 12:28:11 GMT -5
Sounds like serpent-seed doctrine to me. God has declared that a person's natural blood-line is irrelevant. Things like that are used to support notions of racism (not that I'm accusing anyone here or that). He can create sons of Abraham from stones if He wanted to but He isn't interested in a persons genealogy; it's the heart that He searches.
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Post by didymus on Aug 11, 2010 15:23:53 GMT -5
Amen, brother. By the way, why is the screen so much wider in this thread than most others. Didy - internet minister  |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 11, 2010 15:28:08 GMT -5
And I always thought Gen. 6:1-2 was about mathematics and how well women do at it. Guess I was wrong again.
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Post by Morris on Aug 11, 2010 15:31:49 GMT -5
And I always thought Gen. 6:1-2 was about mathematics and how well women do at it. Guess I was wrong again.  God bless you brother! |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 11, 2010 15:41:33 GMT -5
Ezekiel 28 has never stuck out at me that it was referring to Satan and how he lost his position in heaven. Instead I think it is a judgment of God against the prince of Tyre who was at one time a great man full of wisdom and shrewd in all his workings. Then further down the chapter we see how great he was and compared to those things God has established as great. Those things are used as metphors to show the stature of the prince. God then basically mocks his greatness.
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Post by Morris on Aug 12, 2010 8:58:44 GMT -5
And I repeat myself; God bless you brother! Agreed.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 12, 2010 22:09:33 GMT -5
Except that it is not the prince being addressed with this metaphor. It is a king who is the power behind the throne. A king who has the likeness of the one whose story is like that of Satan, who had his beginnings in Eden. Whose brightness is not unlike what we find in 2 Thes 2 in the coming antichrist. Whose coming was ALSO after the working of Satan with all power, signs and lying wonders. This prince in Tyre had the same trouble, having listened to the same lies from the one who thought he could be like God.
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Post by didymus on Aug 13, 2010 6:32:07 GMT -5
Except that it is not the prince being addressed with this metaphor. It is a king who is the power behind the throne. A king who has the likeness of the one whose story is like that of Satan, who had his beginnings in Eden. Whose brightness is not unlike what we find in 2 Thes 2 in the coming antichrist. Whose coming was ALSO after the working of Satan with all power, signs and lying wonders. This prince in Tyre had the same trouble, having listened to the same lies from the one who thought he could be like God. If I may ask, what do you base that on? |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 13, 2010 10:13:55 GMT -5
I base it on Gen 1:26,27 which is not speaking of an earthly mankind who God created first and gave the dominion over the creation - but the angelic host of heaven (Gen 2:1).
Where do we find that sort of dominion given to Adam other than to till the ground? It is Christ who Psalm 8 speaks of that will be the Son of Man who is exalted above the angels to have dominion over all creation - and in Dan 7, it is only then we see the saints of the most High being given dominion in His kingdom.
It is the holy angels who do the will of God in the earth (Dan 4:35); it is that will done in heaven that we now pray for to be done in the earth. Only men who have the law of God written in their hearts, who are made holy by His blood and sanctified by His Spirit, can be given such authority.
All other dominion given to men by the sovereign God was temporary and conditional - even the authority given to the priests. It was not the first Adam that was given this dominion, but the last Adam - Jesus.
Here is where we find ourselves made in the likeness of God - when we are like angels:
Psa 17:15 - As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Though now we bear His image...
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Post by didymus on Aug 14, 2010 1:23:45 GMT -5
MoGrace2u wrote: And what do you base that on? I don't see angelic hosts being created on earth in Genesis 1.26,27. God said, "Let us make man..." He did not say, "Let us make angels..." Also, He made them male and female. There is no indication in Scripture, that I know of, that there ever were female angels. I think it more likely that the word "host" in Genesis 2.1 is referring to the sun, moon and stars, as in Deuteronomy 4.19. As for dominion. God gave Adam and Eve dominion over the fish, the birds, and every living thing that moves on the earth. Genesis 1.28. - I have to stop drinking coffee this late at night |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 14, 2010 9:19:17 GMT -5
But Adam when he is created is given the task of tending the Garden. Where is that dominion over all the beasts and fowls & fish shown to us that has Adam see to it that God's command to the creatures of the earth to fill the earth is part of his job?
When Noah lands the ark, we see enmity/ fear put between man and beast & fowl & fish, as they become food for him. That is not the dominion that Christ is given over His kingdom, nor the dominion He shares with His saints.
As for angels ever being called men - I will look that up. But God has two mankinds He created in the beginning, one that rules in the angelic realm, and the other in the earth. It seems very clear to me!
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Post by didymus on Aug 14, 2010 10:18:21 GMT -5
But Adam when he is created is given the task of tending the Garden. Where is that dominion over all the beasts and fowls & fish shown to us that has Adam see to it that God's command to the creatures of the earth to fill the earth is part of his job? Genesis 1.28. Of course, you see the creation of male and female in chapter 1 as different than the creation of Adam and Eve in chapter 2. The creation of Adam and Eve in chapter 2 is a retelling and expansion of what was told in Genesis 1.26 & 27. Of course the dominion given to Noah and his family is not the same as the dominion given to Christ over His kingdom. But, I don't see what that has to do with the creation of Adam and Eve. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction, two angels went to Sodom to see Lot. The town's people called them men. then there is Michael, the archangel. As far as two mankinds, where is that in the Bible? - yep, it's tea |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 14, 2010 11:00:25 GMT -5
Isa 45:11 - Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 45:12 - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Psa 33:6 - By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Neh 9:6 - Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
1 Ki 22:19 - And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
2 Ki 23:5 - And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven. (the conjunctive appears in both the Hebrew and LXX)
Jer 33:22 - As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Luke 2:13 - And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luke 2:14 - Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luke 2:15 - And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
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Post by Allyn on Aug 14, 2010 11:20:24 GMT -5
Thank you Lord for your perfect creation made without hands and made to glorify your name forever. Only you are worthy, O Lord!
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Post by Morris on Aug 16, 2010 11:00:46 GMT -5
"Host" can refer to a mass of people or things, often in relation to war. It is generally used to reference stars, men gathering for war, and men/angels worshiping God. It can also co-notate a timeliness.
Isaiah 40:26
"Lift up your eyes on high, And see who has created these things, Who brings out their host by number; He calls them all by name, By the greatness of His might And the strength of His power; Not one is missing."
This is certainly referring to the stars of the heavens. By the way, if it is referring to angels, this verse does not allow for a falling of any angels with Satan.
Isaiah 34:2-4
"For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter. Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree."
In this case, the 'host' of heaven are the armies of the nations. Yet it is used in conjunction with being 'dissolved' and 'rolled up like a scroll'.
[The underlined words are the exact same as the one in Genesis 2:1]
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Post by kangaroojack on Aug 28, 2010 17:56:43 GMT -5
Sounds like serpent-seed doctrine to me. God has declared that a person's natural blood-line is irrelevant. Things like that are used to support notions of racism (not that I'm accusing anyone here or that). He can create sons of Abraham from stones if He wanted to but He isn't interested in a persons genealogy; it's the heart that He searches. Hi Morris, Christ was to come through the godly line of Seth and the Sethites threatend that by intermarrying with the daughters of Cain. God replied by destroying them all in the flood and started over again with the pure line. So natural blood line was important. But now that Christ has come natural blood line is irrelevant. Roo |
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Post by Morris on Aug 30, 2010 14:03:36 GMT -5
Hi Morris, Christ was to come through the godly line of Seth and the Sethites threatend that by intermarrying with the daughters of Cain. God replied by destroying them all in the flood and started over again with the pure line. So natural blood line was important. But now that Christ has come natural blood line is irrelevant. Roo God could create the blood line if He so chose. He said " that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones" (Matthew 3:9) Natural bloodline means little to God. he destroyed people with a flood because He " saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". It always has been, and always will be, about the heart. Even Christ's bloodline wasn't by actual blood. You could say that God did indeed create a child of Abraham (and David) from a 'stone'. |
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Post by didymus on Aug 31, 2010 1:02:07 GMT -5
Roo, Morris is correct. There is no indication in Genesis 5,6,7 that God was concerned about Seth's bloodline. Is there Scripture about that anywhere else? |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Sept 8, 2010 11:07:32 GMT -5
Didy asked about whether there are female angels found in scripture -
Zec 5:9 - Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
In Gen 7:2 we find cattle can be male and female; in Gen 2:23 we have Adam calling his wife 'woman'; and in Gen 1:27 we find God creating angels both male and female... in support of what Zecariah saw in a vision.
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Post by didymus on Sept 8, 2010 12:55:12 GMT -5
Didy asked about whether there are female angels found in scripture - Zec 5:9 - Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. In Gen 7:2 we find cattle can be male and female; in Gen 2:23 we have Adam calling his wife 'woman'; and in Gen 1:27 we find God creating angels both male and female... in support of what Zecariah saw in a vision. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Sept 8, 2010 20:43:41 GMT -5
Didy asked about whether there are female angels found in scripture - Zec 5:9 - Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. In Gen 7:2 we find cattle can be male and female; in Gen 2:23 we have Adam calling his wife 'woman'; and in Gen 1:27 we find God creating angels both male and female... in support of what Zecariah saw in a vision. So, how many women do you know who have wings like a stork? |
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