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Post by didymus on Mar 5, 2010 5:07:56 GMT -5
Certainly Scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and Scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what Scripture teaches.
For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.
Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."
Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.
A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in Scripture.
Now it's your turn.
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Post by wandashort on Mar 5, 2010 9:32:49 GMT -5
Hey Didy!
This is a very timely discussion for me personally right now! I consider myself a 5 point Calvinist and have recently been studying more into each point now that I embrace full preterism.
I cannot add anything worthwile to the discussion but wanted you to know that I am hoping to be challenged and learn from the responses in this thread. Thanks!
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Post by didymus on Mar 5, 2010 10:17:22 GMT -5
Hey Didy! This is a very timely discussion for me personally right now! I consider myself a 5 point Calvinist and have recently been studying more into each point now that I embrace full preterism. I cannot add anything worthwile to the discussion but wanted you to know that I am hoping to be challenged and learn from the responses in this thread. Thanks! There is nothing wrong with considering the opinions of others, but always check it out with what the Bible says, including mine, as I am far from perfect. Who knows, I might be wrong. |
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Post by Morris on Mar 5, 2010 11:06:42 GMT -5
Good stuff, didymus. I have a few friends which came out of Calvinism but still struggle somewhat with understanding predestination. This may help them out a bit more. Thanks.
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Post by didymus on Mar 5, 2010 16:25:32 GMT -5
Good stuff, didymus. I have a few friends which came out of Calvinism but still struggle somewhat with understanding predestination. This may help them out a bit more. Thanks. Morris, May I suggest a book for your friends, "Elect in the Son," by Robert Shank. I have not read it yet, but I'll get that chance next week. But, I have seen discussions on the internet about this book, and from what I've learned about it, it sounds like an excellent book. Of course, I might change my mind after I read it. But, this book has been highly recommended to me by a Pastor friend of mine. God Bless. |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 5, 2010 18:15:59 GMT -5
May I suggest a book for your friends, "Elect in the Son," by Robert Shank. ... I probably should read this, too. I've had the book on my bookshelf since 2003. Bought it at the same time I bought Shank's Life in the Son. Read "Life" right away but never got around to "Elect." Thanks for the reminder! Bev |
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Post by didymus on Mar 6, 2010 10:19:43 GMT -5
Bev,
Would you think about starting a thread based on "Life in the Son"?
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Post by Once4all on Mar 6, 2010 12:37:15 GMT -5
"Life in the Son" or "Elect in the Son"? I don't have any desire to start one on "Life in the Son" because I read it seven years ago and don't remember anything about it.
Bev
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Post by didymus on Mar 6, 2010 16:08:11 GMT -5
"Life in the Son" or "Elect in the Son"? I don't have any desire to start one on "Life in the Son" because I read it seven years ago and don't remember anything about it. Bev "Life." I am getting "Elect" this coming week, and I already know about that one. I know nothing about "Life," and I am curious. |
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Post by didymus on Jul 24, 2010 8:18:51 GMT -5
Bev, Here's another that should be moved. When I posted these, I don't think there was a General Theology forum. Any discussion of Calvinism should include all three in this series, as I have spent much time, considering these. This is not bragging. I have spent several years in the Calvinist camp. I reconsidered Calvinism when my Pastor made the statement that you can't be a Christian unless you're a Calvinist. That was 25-30 years ago. Then 2 years ago, a man went into an Amish school, tortured and killed 5-6 young Amish girls. A Calvinist told me that God "caused" that. That is when I declared a personal war on what I now call radical reformed thinking. It's not close to what John Calvin taught. At least I have never seen anything like that in his institutes. Calvin did teach the grace of God, and the sovereignty of God. But he never taught that God causes all things, including rape, incest, abortion, homosexuality, or any other thing that can be called wickedness. Those things are so inconsistent with God's character, I cannot believe that those who promote such trash are truly a child of the Most High. Any understanding of God must start with the fact that God is perfect, and in Him there is no imperfection at all, as the the radical reformationists proclaim. Much of true Calvinism is sound doctrine. These radical reformationists do not teach true Calvinism. For those radical reformationists who claim to be Calvinists, I would like to see where Calvin taught these things.  - reading of Calvin's institutes |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 24, 2010 15:40:20 GMT -5
Here's a little Calvinist predestination humor right from today's local headlines. While I am posting this as humorous, it has a serious side if Calvinism is to be taken to its extreme. Airline limits liability in case of 'mechanical difficulties' Southwest: Breakdown is now an act of God Arizona Daily Star | Posted: Saturday, July 24, 2010 12:00 am If there's a God who controls floods and earthquakes, does the deity also have a hand in an airline's mechanical problems? Apparently so, according to Tucson's most popular airline, which recently added "mechanical difficulties" to the list of acts of God and other events for which the carrier will not be liable if travel is delayed. Southwest Airlines quietly made the change a few weeks ago, to the puzzlement of some industry analysts. Read the rest of this article here: azstarnet.com/news/local/article_5bc41260-e1ee-57fb-8f68-fe716e9f5bad.html?mode=story |
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Post by didymus on Jul 24, 2010 20:39:15 GMT -5
Our God is in Heaven and does whatever he pleases, and that pleases Him. This is what I see Scripture teaching. If it pleases Him to cause mechanical failure in an airplane, He certainly can, which gives me another good reason not to go on one. This is how I understand the sovereignty of God.  - it's tea time |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 24, 2010 21:13:32 GMT -5
Our God is in Heaven and does whatever he pleases, and that pleases Him. This is what I see Scripture teaching. If it pleases Him to cause mechanical failure in an airplane, He certainly can, which gives me another good reason not to go on one. This is how I understand the sovereignty of God. - it's tea time Right. He can. But He isn't responsible for all mechanical failures whenever and wherever they occur. I don't fly anymore, either. Haven't been on an airplane in at least 12 years, if not more. |
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Post by Allyn on Jul 25, 2010 9:39:20 GMT -5
Our God is in Heaven and does whatever he pleases, and that pleases Him. This is what I see Scripture teaching. If it pleases Him to cause mechanical failure in an airplane, He certainly can, which gives me another good reason not to go on one. This is how I understand the sovereignty of God. - it's tea time Right. He can. But He isn't responsible for all mechanical failures whenever and wherever they occur. I don't fly anymore, either. Haven't been on an airplane in at least 12 years, if not more. I wish I didn't have to fly tomorrow. I am the kind of person who wants to be humanly in charge of my destiny. But I also know in my heart that God knows the day of my death so I do not worry that when it comes it is out of my control. I just don't like the options if something were to happen while 30 thousand feet up. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 25, 2010 14:42:20 GMT -5
If the issues of life and the issues of death are in God's hands then they are in the safest place they could possibly be!
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Post by didymus on Jul 25, 2010 16:25:07 GMT -5
Our God is in Heaven and does whatever he pleases, and that pleases Him. This is what I see Scripture teaching. If it pleases Him to cause mechanical failure in an airplane, He certainly can, which gives me another good reason not to go on one. This is how I understand the sovereignty of God. - it's tea time Right. He can. But He isn't responsible for all mechanical failures whenever and wherever they occur. I don't fly anymore, either. Haven't been on an airplane in at least 12 years, if not more. Bev, Notice, I said "If it pleases Him." I didn't say that it does please Him to cause mechanical failure in a airplane. We of all people should know that we are living in the new heaven and earth. The way God deals with people now as compared to the old heaven and earth is different. There doesn't appear to be any evidence to suggest that God does punitive things like that in this age.  - fellowship with elect smilies |
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Post by kangaroojack on Aug 23, 2010 12:43:44 GMT -5
Didymus said:
didymus,
You said that Paul did not use the word "proagape" (forelove). Guess what? Paul did not use the word "proeidon" either which means "to foresee."
God looks out into the future and He foresees (proeidon) two people. But He but foreknows (proginosko) only one of them and that one He foreknows is predestinated to adoption.
You have not refuted Calvinism my brother! Can you see why? God foresees two men but foreknows only one.
Roo
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Post by didymus on Aug 28, 2010 14:12:33 GMT -5
He foresees, He foreknows, not much of a difference. But, His predestination is based on foreknowledge. Where does the Bible say anything else?  |
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Post by kangaroojack on Aug 28, 2010 16:39:42 GMT -5
He foresees, He foreknows, not much of a difference. But, His predestination is based on foreknowledge. Where does the Bible say anything else? Hi didymus, There is a BIG difference between fore sight and fore knowledge. God for sees everyone. But He fore knows only some. In Matthew 25 the King said, "Depart from me you who work iniquity, I never KNEW you." You can't prove your case against Calvinism based on the word "proginosko." Roo |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 28, 2010 23:25:16 GMT -5
He foresees, He foreknows, not much of a difference. But, His predestination is based on foreknowledge. Where does the Bible say anything else? Hid didymus, There is a BIG difference between fore sight and fore knowledge. God for sees everyone. But He fore knows only some. In Matthew 25 the King said, "Depart from me you who work iniquity, I never KNEW you." You can't prove your case against Calvinism based on the word "proginosko." Roo I couldn't find "I never knew you" in Matthew 25, but it is in Matthew 7. In Matthew 7, the context of the statement doesn't seem to be foreknowledge, but rather was said to those who called Jesus "Lord" but did not do the will of the the Father. Or, in other words, the unrighteous and wicked. Matthew 7:18-23 NASB (18) "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. (19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) " So then, you will know them by their fruits. (21) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (23) "And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (John 15:14 NASB) "You are My friends if you do what I command you. (John 15:17 NASB) "This I command you, that you love one another. It all ties in directly with the last passage in Mathew 25 (as you indicated) because it ultimately is about the command to love one another: Matthew 25:43-46 NASB (43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' (44) "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' (45) "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' (46) "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Jesus not "knowing" someone is not about foreknowledge, but about love. John 15:8-9 NASB (8) "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. (9) "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. (John 14:21 NASB) "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." |
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Post by mellontes on Aug 29, 2010 7:06:47 GMT -5
I won't be getting involved in this debate any more than to bring this one point up. The debate has been raging for centuries; my input isn't going to change a thing...
There are hundreds of Scriptures where God commands Christians as to how they are to behave, right? And when Christians disobey these commands they are acting contrary to God's will in these specific matters, right? Yet Calvinsim would say that God had already predetermined/foreordained that these individuals would act in disobedience. Wouldn't that be an indication of God acting contrariwise to Himself? Wouldn't that make Him the Author of confusion?
And I don't even know why Calvinists would bother debating anyone opposed to their view. How can they possibly tell someone they are wrong when, according to their view, God had preordained these people to oppose Calvinism. They are just doing what God desired in the first place! For Calvinists to be actively opposed to them would be to interfere in God's will. But then again, maybe God had divinely ordained that these certain Calvinists would put up a fight with the people he had ordained to oppose Calvinism...who knows???
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 29, 2010 10:31:28 GMT -5
And there is the rub with Calvinism! That no man is ultimately responsible for any evil he does nor capable of doing any good in the world since it is God alone who foreordains which men should do either evil or good and predestines them to that fate before they are ever born.
How ironic that man in his disobedience to God, is the one who ate from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then turns around and blames God for putting the tree there in the first place to tempt him in agreement with the devil! Was God tempting Adam with a lie by promising him life if he disobeyed? No rather it was God who warned that death would be found, and Adam chose death. Was God also tempting Adam by providing him a helpmeet so he wouldn't be alone? Because in his sin Adam blamed God for that as though God had done him some evil. Calling the goodness of God evil and the lie of the devil good has been with us ever since.
Yet the Calvinist doesn't think that God has given man a valid choice to make nor the ability to choose either life or death. So why does he insist that God must force him into making a choice in the first place? Does He do this by lying to the man or by telling him the truth? Because it would seem the Calvinist thinks the liar is his ultra-sovereign god who cannot be trusted in what he tells him but because he is all knowing of everything before the man does it is somehow coercing him into making that choice - right or wrong, against his own will. Where is the devil here, and how does he escape all guilt while God takes all the blame?
And in Romans we see that the guilty man is the one to whom God told the truth so that he therefore knows what God requires of him - but then turns that truth into a lie to suit his own ideas of the god he would rather serve according to his own sin.
And then calls himself the only true servant of this false god that appeals to his own vain imagination? The Popes may have been guilty of making themselves like a god, but what has Calvin done to us with this idol he has erected?
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Post by kangaroojack on Aug 29, 2010 12:49:09 GMT -5
Bev said:
Bev,
I have to stop relying on my poor memory. I messed up on Deuteronomy on the CC thread. You are correct that the "I never knew you" statement is found in Matthew 7. The King foresees all men. But He foreknows only some men.
The case against Calvinism is not proven on the word "proginosko" and those who would disprove it need to find another line of reasoning.
Roo
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Post by kangaroojack on Aug 29, 2010 13:06:27 GMT -5
And there is the rub with Calvinism! That no man is ultimately responsible for any evil he does nor capable of doing any good in the world since it is God alone who foreordains which men should do either evil or good and predestines them to that fate before they are ever born. How ironic that man in his disobedience to God, is the one who ate from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then turns around and blames God for putting the tree there in the first place to tempt him in agreement with the devil! Was God tempting Adam with a lie by promising him life if he disobeyed? No rather it was God who warned that death would be found, and Adam chose death. Was God also tempting Adam by providing him a helpmeet so he wouldn't be alone? Because in his sin Adam blamed God for that as though God had done him some evil. Calling the goodness of God evil and the lie of the devil good has been with us ever since. Yet the Calvinist doesn't think that God has given man a valid choice to make nor the ability to choose either life or death. So why does he insist that God must force him into making a choice in the first place? Does He do this by lying to the man or by telling him the truth? Because it would seem the Calvinist thinks the liar is his ultra-sovereign god who cannot be trusted in what he tells him but because he is all knowing of everything before the man does it is somehow coercing him into making that choice - right or wrong, against his own will. Where is the devil here, and how does he escape all guilt while God takes all the blame? And in Romans we see that the guilty man is the one to whom God told the truth so that he therefore knows what God requires of him - but then turns that truth into a lie to suit his own ideas of the god he would rather serve according to his own sin. And then calls himself the only true servant of this false god that appeals to his own vain imagination? The Popes may have been guilty of making themselves like a god, but what has Calvin done to us with this idol he has erected? Hi Mo Grace, Who said anything about God tempting Adam or anyone? Perish the thought! Calvinists teach that men are indeed responsible for their own actions but that God merely chooses to leave some men to their actions while He chooses to make others like Himself. Calvinists do NOT teach that God makes men sin. They teach that God reprobates some men which means that He LEAVES them to their sin. Others He chooses to save out of their sin. Paul CLEARLY taught reprobation in Romans 1. He said that God gave some men over to a "reprobate mind" meaning that He has left them to themselves without any intention of saving them. Leaving men to themselves is God's right because He does not owe salvation to anyone. Again, God does NOT tempt any man to sin. He merely chooses to leave some men in their sins. This is called "reprobation." All assaults against God's right to reprobate some men are a failure. The analysis of Calvinism you give is a caricature. He chose you. Fall down before Him for it. Love in Christ, Roo |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 29, 2010 18:55:35 GMT -5
Bev said: Bev, I have to stop relying on my poor memory. I messed up on Deuteronomy on the CC thread. You are correct that the "I never knew you" statement is found in Matthew 7. The King fore sees all men. But He fore knows only some men. The case against Calvinism is not proven on the word "proginosko" and those who would disprove it need to find another line of reasoning. Roo That's OK, Roo. I figured you meant Matthew 7. But I think Matthew 25 applied to the discussion, as well. I'm wondering if my point may have been missed, though. Matthew 7:18-23 NASB (18) "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. (19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) "So then, you will know them by their fruits. (21) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (23) "And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' My point being that the above was not about foreknowledge, but about recognizing who the children of God are by the fruit they produce. Jesus said that he never knew them because they had not produced good fruit. |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 29, 2010 19:18:40 GMT -5
... Paul CLEARLY taught reprobation in Romans 1. He said that God gave some men over to a "reprobate mind" meaning that He has left them to themselves without any intention of saving them. Leaving men to themselves is God's right because He does not owe salvation to anyone. Romans 1 says that God gave them over because of their idolatry and sin. It sounds similar to the OT verses about hearts being hardened. Everyone who turns away from God is at risk. Hebrews 3:7-11 NASB (7) Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, (8) DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS, (9) WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS. (10) "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS'; (11) AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'" These were God's people, whom he saved out of Egypt. But they committed sin and idolatry; they went astray in their heart (their hearts were hardened), and God kept them from entering the promised land. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 29, 2010 20:30:42 GMT -5
Roo wrote:
"The analysis of Calvinism you give is a caricature. He chose you. Fall down before Him for it."
Of course my analysis is an exaggeration - but such hyperbole can be used to make a point. How ludicrous is it to see that Calvin himself had a wrong view of what God required of him when Michael Servetus dared to contradict his Institutes? How right is his doctrine if it leads him in such a direction?
If I were to lift your words like Calvin did Paul's in Romans, should I think that you meant I ought to fall down before Calvin because he chose me?
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Post by didymus on Aug 29, 2010 21:08:15 GMT -5
Roo, You have blessed me with some new understanding on my part. Now, you want to take that blessing away by now supporting a doctrinal system of theology that is, in my opinion, false, and heretical. Is God sovereign? Is God full of grace and mercy? Yes. Do men have choices? Yes. Deuteronomy 11.26-32 states: - NKJV, thanks to Biblegateway.com Just now, I have decided not to explain this. Only to ask a question. Why is this not God telling His people that they have a choice? There are two things in Scripture that are plainly taught. 1. God is Sovereign, and 2. Man has a free will. From the very beginning, God has been giving men choices. He gave Adam the choice of whether or not to eat of a certain tree. With any law, there is the potential of violation. God gave His law to His people. He set before them a blessing and a curse. Did He then cause His people to violate the law He told them to obey? Like Mel, I do not intend to spend a lot of time on this. I've already made my points. Besides, I have yet to meet a Calvinist willing to accept a point of view different than his own. Calvinists that I have encountered, with few exceptions, are very militant. At least they get that from the progenitor of Calvinism. - I am reading a backwards country song. I just finished the part where I get my dog back. |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 29, 2010 23:42:00 GMT -5
Since "false" and "heretical" are relative to our own present beliefs about things, let's try to avoid using those labels in our discussions with one another.  |
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Post by kangaroojack on Aug 30, 2010 10:57:28 GMT -5
Bev said:
Bev,
God indeed chooses to leave some men in their sin. This is called reprobation. Other's He sovereignly chooses to save out of their sin. This is called unconditional election.
Roo
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