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Post by mtymousie on Nov 26, 2008 0:03:12 GMT -5
"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." (Mark 1:4-5)
"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." (Luke 23:42)
Mark tells us that John preached and "ALL the land of Judea and they of Jerusalem" "were ALL baptised of him".
The thief asked Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
Let the full impact of what the thief said sink in a moment.
HOW did the thief KNOW about Jesus and His coming kingdom unless he had heard someone PREACH about Him, folks?
Those who dismiss baptism from John 3:5 by claiming the thief was not baptised seem to also dismiss the incredible PROOF that came from his own lips hanging on that cross.
When my Savior said that unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER God's kingdom, you can rest assured that I am obligated to tell a lost person what He said for the sake of their eternal soul.
JMO,
preteristmouse
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Post by MoGrace2U on Nov 27, 2008 14:23:17 GMT -5
Hi Mousie,
The only thing with baptism being what is spoken of by water in John 3:5, is that John 3:6 defines it as our natural birth into flesh. Water baptism gives a picture of our spiritual rebirth but it cannot deliver it. It has more to do with first the natural and then the spiritual which describes the 2 births every man must undergo. Both of which involve a travail whether coming into this world thru natural birth or coming into the spiritual realm thru death. Obviously there are many comparisons we could make, but John seems to have in view our two births and how we must come from the one nature into the other.
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Post by mtymousie on Nov 27, 2008 19:31:08 GMT -5
Hi Mousie, The only thing with baptism being what is spoken of by water in John 3:5, is that John 3:6 defines it as our natural birth into flesh. Water baptism gives a picture of our spiritual rebirth but it cannot deliver it. It has more to do with first the natural and then the spiritual which describes the 2 births every man must undergo. Both of which involve a travail whether coming into this world thru natural birth or coming into the spiritual realm thru death. Obviously there are many comparisons we could make, but John seems to have in view our two births and how we must come from the one nature into the other. Hi, Robin, Then why didn't Jesus just say, "Unless a man is born of FLESH and the Spirit, he cannot enter God's kingdom"? This is the same Jesus who said that the man who believes and is baptised shall be saved (Mark 16:16). After Peter told those men on Pentecost 33 AD that with wicked hands they had crucified Jesus and that God had made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ, those men begged him what they must do. Peter told them clearly to repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins. I simply do not believe God wrote these things down as some coincidence. I am not really sure if Allyn intended for this thread to turn into a debate, but there is a very big difference for me personally between a salvation issue like being born again and a non-salvation issue like eschatology. preteristmouse |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Nov 28, 2008 15:50:17 GMT -5
Hi, Robin, Then why didn't Jesus just say, "Unless a man is born of FLESH and the Spirit, he cannot enter God's kingdom"? This is the same Jesus who said that the man who believes and is baptised shall be saved (Mark 16:16). After Peter told those men on Pentecost 33 AD that with wicked hands they had crucified Jesus and that God had made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ, those men begged him what they must do. Peter told them clearly to repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins. I simply do not believe God wrote these things down as some coincidence. I think audience context must be considered. To Nicodemus, Jesus speaks about needing a spiritual rebirth - not a water baptism. In Mark He is speaking to His disciples about the work they were to do - which included preaching the gospel and baptizing those who believed. Peter at Pentecost with the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit having come, tells men to repent - but not according to John's baptism, but this baptism which Jesus wrought. Water baptism is thus clearly tied to repentance for the receiving of the Holy Spirit; but as He said to Nicodemus this spiritual baptism was at the discernment of the Holy Spirit. The outward form is merely a representation of an inner transformation of the heart. It neither confers it to men nor is the requirement for whom the Spirit baptizes (Cornelius). But it does operate in the realm of a sign which men ought to heed and delight to do as their testimony of these spiritual things they have received. In that sense I think water baptism becomes the evidence of the obedience to the faith one has believed and received. |
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Post by phil on Nov 28, 2008 16:04:27 GMT -5
Most "common" Jewish people were not baptized except for main feasts and rituals. The practice was to wash oneself clean of his/her misdeeds. This practice stemmed from the priests having to wash himslef through 7 pools prior to going up into the temple proper. The practice was also Essenic and probably carried over from Egyptian practices of those days.
John, as an Essene (so was Jesus), believed that the person, and these were Jews, were to be washed of their sins in order to receive the holy spirit (Shekinah) which was soon to come. When Jesus came through and JOhn says to him that Jesus should baptize John, JOhn knew that the Holy Spirit was among them. Jesus' blood was the baptism for mankind, not water. Water may purify one's body, but Jesus was here to purify one's soul, no more, no less. It is the spiritual side of things that must answer to God, not the physical. So, if you believe Jesus was the MAN, confess your sins, believe in the resurrection, and try your best to spiritually stay on the narrow path (the way), you have found favor. Jesus was the door, his blood the wash-basin.
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