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Post by mellontes on Jun 7, 2010 6:23:59 GMT -5
God didn't phase the the old covenant out and the new one in. The old covenant became a covenant of judgment. Morris, I am under the understanding that the new covenant is the fulfillment of the old. How do you mean the old covenant became a covenant of judgment? To me, Christ (the new covenant) became the judge because it was appointed to Him... |
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Post by Morris on Jun 7, 2010 15:06:48 GMT -5
Morris, I am under the understanding that the new covenant is the fulfillment of the old. How do you mean the old covenant became a covenant of judgment? To me, Christ (the new covenant) became the judge because it was appointed to Him... And this is certainly my understanding as well. It was because Christ fulfilled the old covenant that it became a 'covenant of judgment'. What I mean by that is simply this; once fulfilled, observing that old covenant made you guilty of it. Through Christ, God made His righteousness available without having to work for it yourself. By observing the old law people rejected God's righteousness in an attempt to establish there own (by their very observance of it). Paul spoke about this; Romans 10:1-4, " Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Once God's righteousness became available through Christ the (external) requirements of the law ended. The law brought sin to light so that we would be guided to Christ, for he ended all sacrifice for sin. His sacrifice for sin was only done once and where sin is forgiven, there is no other sacrifice, because no sacrifice for sins is left. Notice again now what is found in Isaiah 66:3, " But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a man,
and whoever offers a lamb,
like one who breaks a dog's neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig's blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense,
like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations" Observing the law makes you guilty of breaking it. God called it "their own ways", as in attempting to establish a righteousness that is based on their own work. Yet God calls it an "abomination". In fact, it is my belief that this was an abomination that brought upon them desolation, as described a few verses later in verse 6, " Hear that uproar from the city,
hear that noise from the temple!
It is the sound of the LORD
repaying his enemies all they deserve." Note the wording there. Remember when I mentioned that "no sacrifice for sins is left"? It comes from Hebrews 10:26. Now, with all this in mind, let's look at the broader passage (verses 26-31); " If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."" Can you see now how the old covenant became a judgment to those who observed it? |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 7, 2010 15:39:23 GMT -5
... Notice again now what is found in Isaiah 66:3, " But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a man,
and whoever offers a lamb,
like one who breaks a dog's neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig's blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense,
like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations" Observing the law makes you guilty of breaking it. God called it "their own ways", as in attempting to establish a righteousness that is based on their own work. Yet God calls it an "abomination". ... And I believe this is the "works" by which we are not saved. Whenever Paul contrasts works and faith or works and grace, it is most often these "works of the law" that he has in mind. In most cases, he even writes "works of the law." but sometimes he just calls it "works." When one makes sacrifices for sin, that means they continue to sin. The works (sacrifices) of the law produce a false righteousness! Confusingly, good deeds (loving others, not lying, etc.) are also called "works" in James, but I say that a different sort of "works" are involved here. That's why James and Paul sound like they contradict one another regarding works and faith, but one is works of the law resulting in false righteousness and one is works of faith resulting in true righteousness, and the outcome, eternal life. Romans 6:22-23 NASB (22) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. (23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Yup, another one of Bev's rabbit trails. ;D Didy, regarding your earlier post, yes, I believe our doctrines change as we grow in Christ. I think that's because the growth causes one to dig in deeper to the Word (and vice versa). But there is still the paradox of different people digging in just as deeply and coming up with different doctrines. Now... I have some editing work to get back to. I'm way too easily sidetracked. |
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Post by didymus on Jun 7, 2010 16:08:48 GMT -5
This is something that confuses me a bit. The Old Covenant and the Law that accompanied it did come from God, didn't it? So, how could He find fault with it? Isn't because the way the people of Israel carried out the law. By the time Christ came, the whole law included ordinances of the Pharisees, including the rule of Sabbath traveling. No more than 2 miles. In doing so, they made the law of God of no effect. It's like our Constitution. The Congress and the Presidents, have passed law after law, created the "U.S. Code," which makes the Constitution of no effect. The Congress created many unconstituional agencies and departments such as the IRS, Federal Reserve, Department of Education, to name a few. Didn't the leaders of Israel do pretty much the same thing with the Law God gave Moses?  |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 7, 2010 16:39:02 GMT -5
This is something that confuses me a bit. The Old Covenant and the Law that accompanied it did come from God, didn't it? So, how could He find fault with it? Isn't because the way the people of Israel carried out the law. By the time Christ came, the whole law included ordinances of the Pharisees, including the rule of Sabbath traveling. No more than 2 miles. In doing so, they made the law of God of no effect. It's like our Constitution. The Congress and the Presidents, have passed law after law, created the "U.S. Code," which makes the Constitution of no effect. The Congress created many unconstituional agencies and departments such as the IRS, Federal Reserve, Department of Education, to name a few. Didn't the leaders of Israel do pretty much the same thing with the Law God gave Moses? That's an interesting analogy about the Law of God and the Constitution of the United States! I believe God found fault with the first covenant because it was not making anyone righteous. People could sin and offer a sacrifice, and by doing that work they thought they were being righteous. They were deceiving themselves about what it meant to be righteous before God. But in 1 John 3:7, we see that to be righteous means to actually DO what is righteous. 1 John 3:7 KJV (7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. |
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Post by mellontes on Jun 7, 2010 17:28:48 GMT -5
Morris,
Perhaps it is more a case of semantics but I still think the old covenant was not the judge, or even a judge. I absolutely agree that those who "worked" were trying to keep the law which had been made obsolete (and also before it became oblsolete). But the law is not the judge. It is the standard by which one "would be (future) judged. Just like our courts system - we break the law and the judge hands down a sentence. But it is not the 60 MPH speed limit signs which hands down the judgement. Christ is the judge. He is the One who carries out the sentence.
Anyway, I am glad that most, if not all, are on board with the idea of works as being related to old covenant law keeping. For far too many years I was taught that it meant general good works - assisting elderly people, giving money to the poor, etc. etc. etc.
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Post by Morris on Jun 7, 2010 21:59:09 GMT -5
Morris, Perhaps it is more a case of semantics but I still think the old covenant was not the judge, or even a judge. Oh no, I wasn't trying to say that the covenant itself became a judge, rather it became a covenant that resulted in being judged. Scripture declares God to be the judge, and even Jesus Himself confirmed that if He were to judge, would be God's judgment coming through Him. While I agree with this I don't believe it is all-inclusive. Note Romans 2:12-15, " All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" It is possible to sin apart from the law, and it is also possible to be a law without having the law. And in all cases what matters is the heart. |
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Post by didymus on Jun 7, 2010 23:55:17 GMT -5
Regarding works, it seems to me, that works of the law led to faith, under the Old Covenant. But, under the New, faith produces works of righteousness. That's just an opinion. I don't mind being corrected. Now, if I may ask. How does this discussion about faith and works implicate the "Covenant Transition"? Were there two types of faith being used during the time from the cross to the coming of Christ? 1. A faith based on works of the law. 2. Faith producing works of righteousness. As I pointed out earlier, according to Hebrews 8.4, the earthly priests were continuing with the works of the law, in the temple, till the temple was destroyed.  Let's get together for a spot of tea sometime. |
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Post by Morris on Jun 8, 2010 13:36:47 GMT -5
Regarding works, it seems to me, that works of the law led to faith, under the Old Covenant. But, under the New, faith produces works of righteousness. I can certainly see why you'd say this and in general I can agree with it. However, I do believe that there is more to it than just this. Abraham did not do any works of the law; but what he did do, he did "by faith". So, even in the OT, it can be said that 'faith produces works of righteousness', in that Abraham obeyed. David noted that faith, apart from the works, produced righteousness. Romans 4:5 " However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" More comments coming... |
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Post by Morris on Jun 8, 2010 15:32:01 GMT -5
Now, if I may ask. How does this discussion about faith and works implicate the "Covenant Transition"? Were there two types of faith being used during the time from the cross to the coming of Christ? 1. A faith based on works of the law. 2. Faith producing works of righteousness. As I pointed out earlier, according to Hebrews 8.4, the earthly priests were continuing with the works of the law, in the temple, till the temple was destroyed. Personally, I don't find two different types of faith in scripture. Even in the OT, the righteous lived by faith. Habakkuk 2:4 " See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright—but the righteous will live by his faith" This is quoted in Hebrews 10:38 and leads us into the great faith chapter. The OT does not contradict the NT when you see past the exterior elements. Here's another example provided by David Psalm 51:14-19 [although it should be read in its entirety) " Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
In your good pleasure make Zion prosper;
build up the walls of Jerusalem.
Then there will be righteous sacrifices,
whole burnt offerings to delight you;
then bulls will be offered on your altar." Even here, in the last verse, these righteous sacrifices (the whole burnt offerings and bulls on the altar) are actually the " living sacrifices" spoken of in Romans 12:1. For as David says, the " sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart". This is the kind of thing that strengthens my faith so much, finding in the word that God is the same, consistently. For even David prayed to be saved from the bloodguilt from the sacrifices of the law. This spoken about in Hebrews chapter 10 as well. (I can count at least 89 OT quotes in Hebrews alone!). The law was instituted to see outwardly the inward need of God and to then put your faith in what He does. Yet over time, people began to put their faith in those outward acts, as if righteousness could come by those. We see this is scripture. Now, addressing Hebrews 8:4 and the "men" offering "the gifts prescribed by the law". They were being offered at "a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow", not "the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord". I find it interesting that these "men" are not referred to as priests here. There has been a change in the priesthood and of the law; a new high priest has been sworn in with an oath. |
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Post by didymus on Jun 8, 2010 16:28:50 GMT -5
Morris,
There comes a time when any further discussion is pointless. I believe this one has arrived.
God bless as you continue to study.
Didy.
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Post by mellontes on Jun 8, 2010 20:39:11 GMT -5
Now, if I may ask. How does this discussion about faith and works implicate the "Covenant Transition"? Were there two types of faith being used during the time from the cross to the coming of Christ? 1. A faith based on works of the law. 2. Faith producing works of righteousness. As I pointed out earlier, according to Hebrews 8.4, the earthly priests were continuing with the works of the law, in the temple, till the temple was destroyed. Personally, I don't find two different types of faith in scripture. Even in the OT, the righteous lived by faith. Habakkuk 2:4 " See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright—but the righteous will live by his faith" This is quoted in Hebrews 10:38 and leads us into the great faith chapter. The OT does not contradict the NT when you see past the exterior elements. Here's another example provided by David Psalm 51:14-19 [although it should be read in its entirety) " Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
In your good pleasure make Zion prosper;
build up the walls of Jerusalem.
Then there will be righteous sacrifices,
whole burnt offerings to delight you;
then bulls will be offered on your altar." Even here, in the last verse, these righteous sacrifices (the whole burnt offerings and bulls on the altar) are actually the " living sacrifices" spoken of in Romans 12:1. For as David says, the " sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart". This is the kind of thing that strengthens my faith so much, finding in the word that God is the same, consistently. For even David prayed to be saved from the bloodguilt from the sacrifices of the law. This spoken about in Hebrews chapter 10 as well. (I can count at least 89 OT quotes in Hebrews alone!). The law was instituted to see outwardly the inward need of God and to then put your faith in what He does. Yet over time, people began to put their faith in those outward acts, as if righteousness could come by those. We see this is scripture. Now, addressing Hebrews 8:4 and the "men" offering "the gifts prescribed by the law". They were being offered at "a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow", not "the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord". I find it interesting that these "men" are not referred to as priests here. There has been a change in the priesthood and of the law; a new high priest has been sworn in with an oath. Good thoughts Sheldon. Discussion is always good. |
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Post by Morris on Jun 9, 2010 15:19:11 GMT -5
Thanks, mellontes!
Here's another great passage I found, thanks to Didy, regarding the subject of the old covenant bringing judgment.
Galatians 3:10,11
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." "
No wonder God said judgment was going to come upon Jerusalem, they were under a curse. I believe David called this bloodguilt when he said, "Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me" (Psalm 51:14)
No wonder Paul used such strong language in Galatians 3:1-3,
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"
It is shortly after this that Paul says "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse".
You know, every once in a while I need to remind myself that everything that was taught in the NT was based on the OT.
Acts 17:11
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
These Bereans searched the OT to confirm the message of the NT.
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Post by mellontes on Jun 9, 2010 20:18:26 GMT -5
No wonder Paul used such strong language in Galatians 3:1-3, " You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?]" Morris, I have a real problem with that particular translation. The KJV expresses it as the "flesh," which, in my understanding, connects it to "Israel after the flesh," which is entirely old covenant (Law) related. And since the context of those Galatian's verses is about the Law, why then does your translation substitute it with human effort. No wonder why "works" is wrested out from its original context (as I was taught for years) to be human effort (as stated by me in a recent post) and NOT with the Law... This is a serious mistranslation...in my opinion of course. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jun 10, 2010 9:59:50 GMT -5
The idea that the OC was one of works and not also faith seems to be the error. Under that system one still had to put their faith in God to forgive their sins. He was not obligated to do so because the blood of a lamb had been poured out. Repentance was always the prerequisite for atonement for sins. What it pictured was that a death was required and a substitution for their own death could be made so that judgment for their sins - which othewise would have resulted in their own death, could be stayed. As such the law served for this flesh life only - until the time of reformation when eternal life would be given. Under that system was the hope of resurrection kept alive by faith, for which no works could achieve.
The new covenant that Jeremiah spoke about was for the time when the exiles were to be returned from Babylon to the land. In that time they would no more suffer because of the sins of their fathers who the Lord had brought out of Egypt by that covenant of Moses. Instead each man would suffer for his own sins. This was the new generation of Israel and Judah that would be wrought when their 70 yrs had been fulfilled - completing the promises to the fathers as well as the judgment for their transgressions that had fallen upon their children. The spiritual aspect of that new covenant included a heart change as well as the expectation of forgiveness and mercy from God for their sins - if they repented of them. That sin was idolatry.
Jeremiah's new covenant hope thus foreshadows the new covenant that came with Christ and the new creation that would come from a spritual rebirth. Jeremiah however spoke not of the end to animal sacrifice being required at that time - in fact he spoke of a new stone temple they would build. And Christ also spoke of a new temple that was to be spiritual in nature. This is why Ezekiel can see both a stone temple and a spiritual temple in which the glory of the Lord appears. In the day that transition would be made.
Jeremiah also speaks of a heavenly city that would be lifted up to become a new sanctuary when the earthly one is lowered that was to be their hope into the eon. That is when the sacrifices for sins would be finished and forgiveness would come only by faith in Christ. This is that law which Christ fulfilled so that it could end and faith alone would be the way to eternal life - as it always has been. Therefore the resurrection of Christ marks when this transition was made and the lowering of the stone temple when it was completed - to be accompanied by the knowledge that sign revealed was when the OT saints were raised to inhabit their heavenly city that He had prepared for them. Now the kings of the earth can bring their glory into it. And we can call men to come and drink from the living waters that flow from our new sanctuary.
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