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Post by didymus on Mar 17, 2010 22:31:48 GMT -5
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Matthew 16.27 & 28 are talking about the ascension, and not the coming. No way. I really don't understand why this simple verse is so difficult to understand. Jesus said, SOME would not die. At that point, of the disciples that was "standing" there, only Judas died. There is just no way the ascension fits what Jesus said in Mt. 16. Sorry, it just doesn't.  One could hope. , but not so unlikely if another 40 years is the time frame... (ESV) Mar 8:34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Note: Do the verses above and below sound like he was addressing His 12 disciples who already had left everything and were following Him? Mar 8:35 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. Mar 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? Mar 8:37 For what can a man give in return for his soul? Mar 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." Mar 9:1 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." Am I sensing a wee little bit of agreement here? I believe I made the point in another post, that no matter how many people were "standing here," it doesn't change the timing of the event. The ascension could not be it.  |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 3, 2010 13:36:22 GMT -5
If you look at the entire passage of Mat 16:21-28 where Jesus is talking about His impending death & resurrection, there are several points being made.
1. Peter denies the cross and Jesus rebukes Satan for being concerned with only things that concern this earthly life of man. This is the idolatry that resides in the covetous heart of man.
2. If one is to follow Christ, then he must deny himself and take up his cross. The key to overcoming the thing in which the devil tempts man to sin.
3. Anyone who thinks he can save his earthly life will lose his heavenly life - this is my take, since sacrificing his earthly life is how Jesus gives His resurrected life to us.
4. Where is the profit to be found if the whole world is gained and yet a man loses his own soul - is there something he has to barter with which can gain him the life he needs? - my paraphrasing.
Now if we pause right here, can anyone see Judas being spoken of yet? Because he did think that 30 pieces of silver was a good exchange. Satan is the one who entered into him, which clue is Jesus rebuking Satan when Peter listened to him.
Jesus is speaking in true Hebraic parabolic style and what He is saying is also hiding something else that only the wise will understand. Judas is the one who will not see the Lord enter into His glory because he will have hanged himself beforehand. Judas is the only one who will be lost to fulfill the scriptures - John 17:12 - the son of perdition. Judas is the one being used to bring the cross into being and Jesus' words here are prophetic.
The 'some' who would not taste death of those that were standing there, is stating that a certain one would! And the death he would taste would be that of his own condemnation. It is not speaking of just his earthly demise, just as the life Jesus was speaking of that they needed was not only earthly life.
And Jesus in speaking about the death He is about to taste for every man by which He will give some of them life - some being everybody that is among them, except Judas!
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Post by didymus on Apr 5, 2010 3:45:19 GMT -5
If you look at the entire passage of Mat 16:21-28 where Jesus is talking about His impending death & resurrection, there are several points being made. 1. Peter denies the cross and Jesus rebukes Satan for being concerned with only things that concern this earthly life of man. This is the idolatry that resides in the covetous heart of man. 2. If one is to follow Christ, then he must deny himself and take up his cross. The key to overcoming the thing in which the devil tempts man to sin. 3. Anyone who thinks he can save his earthly life will lose his heavenly life - this is my take, since sacrificing his earthly life is how Jesus gives His resurrected life to us. 4. Where is the profit to be found if the whole world is gained and yet a man loses his own soul - is there something he has to barter with which can gain him the life he needs? - my paraphrasing. Now if we pause right here, can anyone see Judas being spoken of yet? Because he did think that 30 pieces of silver was a good exchange. Satan is the one who entered into him, which clue is Jesus rebuking Satan when Peter listened to him. Jesus is speaking in true Hebraic parabolic style and what He is saying is also hiding something else that only the wise will understand. Judas is the one who will not see the Lord enter into His glory because he will have hanged himself beforehand. Judas is the only one who will be lost to fulfill the scriptures - John 17:12 - the son of perdition. Judas is the one being used to bring the cross into being and Jesus' words here are prophetic. The 'some' who would not taste death of those that were standing there, is stating that a certain one would! And the death he would taste would be that of his own condemnation. It is not speaking of just his earthly demise, just as the life Jesus was speaking of that they needed was not only earthly life. And Jesus in speaking about the death He is about to taste for every man by which He will give some of them life - some being everybody that is among them, except Judas! I am not sure of the point here, but considering the flow of the discussion, Judas was still alive by the time the transfiguration occurred. Judas did not die until after he betrayed Christ.  |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 5, 2010 9:23:35 GMT -5
Didy wrote:
I am not sure of the point here, but considering the flow of the discussion, Judas was still alive by the time the transfiguration occurred. Judas did not die until after he betrayed Christ.
Was the transfiguration when Jesus entered the glory of His Father which the disciples saw? No it was after the cross in His resurrected state that they saw Him ascend in the clouds with angels. Judas was the only one who had died and did not see it.
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Post by didymus on Apr 5, 2010 10:28:42 GMT -5
Didy wrote: I am not sure of the point here, but considering the flow of the discussion, Judas was still alive by the time the transfiguration occurred. Judas did not die until after he betrayed Christ. Was the transfiguration when Jesus entered the glory of His Father which the disciples saw? No it was after the cross in His resurrected state that they saw Him ascend in the clouds with angels. Judas was the only one who had died and did not see it. Does the ascension fit , "... see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"? |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 12:21:53 GMT -5
Was the transfiguration when Jesus entered the glory of His Father which the disciples saw? No it was after the cross in His resurrected state that they saw Him ascend in the clouds with angels. Judas was the only one who had died and did not see it. Robin, Why do you hold an emphasis on the "ENTERING" into the glory of the father? I think all three accounts (Mt 16:28, Mk 8:38, Lk 9:26) are clear that it is the "COMING" that is emphasized. Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.[/color] [/i] If coming is to meant to be leaving then why didn't the angels that were at the ascension go with Him? How were the rewards given to every man at the ascension? Mark 8:38 - Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.[/color][/i] How was it that the ascension was a "shaming" of those who witnessed His ascension. It is much better to think of this as the Parousia event when MANY would be ashamed. Was the adulterous and sinful generation witnesses to the ascension? Luke 9:26 - For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. [/color][/i] The shaming continues. Why should people be ashamed for something they never even witnessed (speaking of those who were ashamed of His words). According to your understanding, this occurred at the ascension. How does Jesus "enter" His own glory here? His "coming" in the glory of the Father is best represented by the previous judgment comings of His father in OT times. Judgment had now been handed over to Jesus Christ: John 5:22-23 - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.[/color][/i] Does anyone see the problem of Peter believing that Jesus was the Christ and not knowing what the "Christ" needed to do? Is this not the essence of the Christ (Messiah)? He should have been familiar with the Messiah's role. It is only mentioned twice in the entire Old Testament - Daniel 9:25-26. Daniel 9:25-26 - Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. There are, of course, other verses which give mention to the "Annointed One" probably worthy of a study to understand how exactly Jesus is this Messiah. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 5, 2010 13:33:04 GMT -5
Unless Jesus enters into His glory and receives the kingdom there, there is no way for the saints to be resurrected into heaven. It is why Hebrews 9 mentions a 2nd appearing TO the Father as what is the antitype of Aaron's atonement ritual. Once all these things were done the dead were to be raised by Jesus and presented to the Father. And it wasn't in the earth those things were happening. The things the earth was to see happened in the visible realm and were testified to by the eyewitnesses. The rest is only seen by those visions of heaven John was given. Saints standing in glory before the throne is not an earthly picture of saints ruling and reigning with Christ who is not seen any more visibly in the earth.
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Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 17:35:56 GMT -5
Unless Jesus enters into His glory and receives the kingdom there, there is no way for the saints to be resurrected into heaven. It is why Hebrews 9 mentions a 2nd appearing TO the Father as what is the antitype of Aaron's atonement ritual. Once all these things were done the dead were to be raised by Jesus and presented to the Father. And it wasn't in the earth those things were happening. The things the earth was to see happened in the visible realm and were testified to by the eyewitnesses. The rest is only seen by those visions of heaven John was given. Saints standing in glory before the throne is not an earthly picture of saints ruling and reigning with Christ who is not seen any more visibly in the earth. Honestly Robin, I don't know what you are getting at. Sorry. I am not even sure why you mentioned all that "earthly" stuff... If you could just explain to me in your own words what you believe Christ's statement of " and then he shall reward every man according to his works" from Matthew 16:27 means, perhaps I will be much better able to understand what you are trying to say. |
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