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Post by didymus on Mar 2, 2010 14:04:30 GMT -5
My dear Sower,
Here is something I said way back when. "It then comes down to this. What is meant by, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? I believe the answer to this question, you must believe everything he did and everything he said, as much as has been revealed to us." This should answer your concerns here,
"John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jssus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen
Clearly there are many things which Jesus did we're not aware of, but believing in Jesus does not require we know all those things, just our willingness to accept them based upon our faith in him. I hope that makes sense.
We do that by faith, because we can't truly know Jesus in totality, that's a great mystery (1 Timothy 3:16)."
Clearly, we can't even know things that haven't been revealed, which I pointed before. So, when I say we must believe in Christ in totality, obviously I am referring to things that we can know.
Next, can some who calls Jesus a liar be saved? I think not. And that is what the futurist position does. Jesus plainly told the disciples that he would return in their lifetime. If the futurist position is correct, then Jesus lied. How then can one trust him for salvation if they believe that he lied?
But the truth is, the futurist position is a lie, and Jesus is not a liar. The futurists simply twist words of Scripture to make it fit their man-made doctrine. They distort the truth in unrighteousness. Would saved people do that? The futurist doctrine is responsible for the murder of innocent people. There are cults based on this doctrine that actually murder people to bring on the apocalypse. Did you know that?
No, I am sorry. Futurists are not saved, for all the reasons I just told you, and probably more. They need to repent of this heresy.
There is a documentary called, "The Secrets of Revelation." It exposes what this futurist junk has done down through the years, including that cult I mentioned. You should see it. And, then I dare you to say I am wrong.
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Post by Sower on Mar 2, 2010 15:19:57 GMT -5
My dear Sower, Here is something I said way back when. "It then comes down to this. What is meant by, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? I believe the answer to this question, you must believe everything he did and everything he said, as much as has been revealed to us." You certainly did say that. I agree!  It does, but I think they do it ignorantly. I was once a futurist that believed and defended that teaching, but I did it ignorantly until I saw the truth in the scripture (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27,28; Matthew 24:29-31; Luke 21:20-32). I agree! True! Futurist don't believe Jesus promsed to come back during the first century generation of the disciples. I agree, 100%! I agree! I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I do know Peter said some of Paul's epistles were hard to understand, which they that are unlearned and unstabled wrest, as they do other scriptures unto their own distruction (2 Peter 3:16). No, I didn't know that. I just don't think all futurist are knowingly guilty, some are just ignorant of the truth, as I was. I agree! I would really like to see it (not to say you're wrong), but for learning. Blessings, Sower~ |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 2, 2010 15:24:52 GMT -5
In response to Theophilus regarding the new heaven and earth and the New Jerusalem as referring to the new covenant in Christ, the church...
1 Corinthians 15:53-54 – For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The time when the “mortal” puts on “immortality” is when “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Now, when is “Death is swallowed up in victory”?
It occurs at the same time that “the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces” (Isaiah 25:8)
Isaiah 25:8 – He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
So, what is the context of Isaiah 25:8?
Well, we know from Isaiah 25:9 that this is the day of salvation!
Isaiah 25:9 – And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
We are all familiar with the time that God wipes away our tears in Revelation:
Revelation 21:1-4 – And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Notice the connection with death being swallowed up from 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Isaiah 25:8 with that of “there shall be no more death” in Revelation 21:4. Now, when does God wipe away all these tears? Here are five linking events:
1. “A new heaven and a new earth”
2. “The first heaven and the first earth were passed away”
3. “No more sea”
4. “New Jerusalem…prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”
5. “The tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people”
But first, a little more on the new Jerusalem from this same chapter:
Revelation 21:9-10 – … Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
There can be no question (at least not for me) that the arrival of the new heaven and new earth is the same time of the arrival of the new Jerusalem. It is WITHIN these that God wipes away our tears! According to Isaiah 25, this is the day of salvation. I am sure that most preterists associate the new Jerusalem with the new covenant in Christ – salvation. Dispensationalists do not. Peter refers to the new heaven and earth as a place where righteousness dwells:
2 Peter 3:13 – Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
But we are not done proving this fact. Let’s look a little closer at point #5 from above.
In a continuation of the “dry bones of Israel” that is prophesied to one day have life, Ezekiel states the following:
Ezekiel 37:26-28 – Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
The three bolded and underlined points from Ezekiel 37 are found elsewhere. Dispensationalists are reluctant to admit that the same points are exhibited in the church!
2 Corinthians 6:16 – And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
I believe we have successfully connected Ezekiel’s prophesy with both Revelation and the church. Salvation, new heaven and new earth, new Jerusalem is concerning the church. Now, there is some controversy concerning the extent of the new heaven and earth. Some believe that all present nations exist under the umbrella of the new heaven and earth. Under this umbrella also exits the new Jerusalem. To this group, the new Jerusalem is not to be equated with the new heaven and earth. For others, the new Jerusalem is equated with the new heaven and earth. I equate the two as being equal entities.
So, does what Peter say regarding the new heaven and earth mean that righteousness exists “under the umbrella” or IS the “umbrella”? We need to go back to Isaiah 65 this time.
Isaiah 65:17-19 – For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: or, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
The bolded and underlined portion matches very well with that of Revelation 21:4’s “and there shall be no more … sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
But there is a bit more from Isaiah 65…
Isaiah 65:25 – The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Which is strangely similar to Isaiah 11…
Isaiah 11:6 – The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And these events occur “in that day” when Isaiah 11:10 is given its fulfillment:
Isaiah 11:10 – And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
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Which we know to be fulfilled in Paul’s day when he refers to the Gentiles becoming co-heirs of the promise and part of the same body in Jesus Christ as the believing Jews…
Romans 15:8-12 – Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Romans 15:12 is quoting Isaiah 11:10 from the Septuagint. (This is a matter for personal study.) Paul is using Isaiah 11:10 and three other OT passages to prove his point that what was current in his day is that which was prophesied a long time ago. Dispensationalists do not agree because Isaiah’s reference to the wolf and the lamb indicate a return to the Garden state when animals resort back to being kind, gentle and peace loving creatures. This allegedly occurs in their millennial kingdom which is still a future event.
However, this is exactly what does happen – only it is totally figurative in nature. What happened in the Garden is reversed by the seed prophecy of Genesis 3:15:
Genesis 3:15 – And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
And we know that the true seed is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the Lord Jesus Christ who brings salvation! What was lost in the garden is regained in Jesus Christ.
So, initially we started out in what is known as the resurrection chapter, 1 Corinthians 15. We learned that immortality and incorruption are obtained at this time. We also learned that at this time “death would be swallowed up in victory.” Death is swallowed up in victory the same time God wipes away our tears. This is in the new heaven and earth and in the new Jerusalem! It is when salvation occurs. It is when we, as new believers, become new creations (ktisis – Strong’s 2937) in Christ. Therefore, we are immortal and incorrupt at the moment of salvation! Also, the idea that a physical, bodily resurrection stems from 1 Corinthians 15 is totally false. Even the view of new spiritual bodies is being given to passed away saints is false. It has nothing to do with the death of a believer! It is all about salvation – being raised from the dead (separation from God because of sin), not being raised from physical death!
The only thing left is the fact that in the new heaven a new earth there is no longer the “sea.” It was the first heaven and earth that contained the “sea.” The only heaven and earth that I know of that contained the “sea” is found in Genesis chapter one!
This ends the portion that addresses the new heaven and new earth and the new Jerusalem as referring to the new covenant...
My resurrection portion awaits until those 5 questions from a couple of posts back are answered...
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Post by didymus on Mar 2, 2010 17:19:08 GMT -5
Sower,
I just watched that documentary again. That cult was in Japan. In order to bring on the apocalypse, they turned to murder, by gasing the subway and killing 12 people and injuring thousands. There was another cult in Switzerland called "The Order of the Solar Temple, that determined that a 3 month old baby was the anti-Christ. They drove a stake through his heart.
In Israel, they want to rebuild the temple that was destroyed in 70AD. Why? So it can be destroyed and usher in their Messiah, which futurists call the "second coming." There is a problem. There is a mosque on that land. And, for many years they have been fighting over it. Thousands of people have already died over this. And "Christians" in America support it, because the temple has to be re-built so it can be destroyed so jesus can come back. How stupid is that?
The number 666, the mark of the beast. Many scholars say that was Nero. Futurists say Revelation was written in the 90s AD, long after Nero was dead. He was killed in 68 AD. Why would John write about a man that was dead for 30 years? Makes no sense. But, futurists have to claim the later date in order to give some credence to their heresy.
I am convinced that futurists are heretics. If so, how can they be Christians?
By the way, I was also a futurist as well. But, when confronted by the truth, I changed my mind, which is what repentance is. But a militant futurist will fight against the truth.
Now I have a question. Does it matter to God if someone is wrong in ignorance?
Enjoy the day.
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Post by Morris on Mar 2, 2010 17:51:51 GMT -5
I am convinced that futurists are heretics. If so, how can they be Christians? The exact same way that you are a Christian. I too was a futurist. I was a Christian, and I am a still a Christian. |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 2, 2010 20:34:08 GMT -5
I am convinced that futurists are heretics. If so, how can they be Christians? The exact same way that you are a Christian. I too was a futurist. I was a Christian, and I am a still a Christian. This is the sort of thing that's been on my mind of late. Everyone (well, not everyone) is so quick to say someone is a heretic and not a Christian just because they understand some scriptures differently than they do. We're all so self-assured that our own belief, whatever it may be, is the right one and everyone who disagrees be damned. The whole thing grieves me more than I can express here. Bev |
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Post by didymus on Mar 3, 2010 1:11:03 GMT -5
The exact same way that you are a Christian. I too was a futurist. I was a Christian, and I am a still a Christian. This is the sort of thing that's been on my mind of late. Everyone (well, not everyone) is so quick to say someone is a heretic and not a Christian just because they understand some scriptures differently than they do. We're all so self-assured that our own belief, whatever it may be, is the right one and everyone who disagrees be damned. The whole thing grieves me more than I can express here. Bev You don't know me well, and not for long. But, anyone who does would tell you, I do not make statements like that lightly. I have believed in Christ all my live. Well and good, even the demons believe and tremble. I have studied the Bible ever since I was seven years old. Attended various churches. Started a two year course to become a preacher in the church of Christ. But, I dared to question some "non-existent" creeds. Been a member at a few "Reformed" churches. And through it all I have continued to study, and ask questions. I finally dropped out of the man-made religious scene. Why? Because, very few in man's religious scene care about the truth. In all that, and in all my life, I have never called anything heresy until now. I have been called a heretic because of my belief in fulfilled prophecy. In this very thread, the salvation of those who believe as we do has been questioned. Those who share the preterist point of view have been called heretics for years by the futurist crowd. And, why? Simply because we have a different set of beliefs regarding the end times. They have no evidence whatsoever that preterist theology is heresy. Conversely, there is a lot of evidence to support the conclusion that futurist theology is heresy. I gave just a sliver. As I say, I do not make these statements lightly. If you would examine the evidence I presented in this thread, and all the other evidence there is, if you are one who accepts the truth when confronted by it, I believe you would make the same conclusion. Unless you support murder for religious reasons. How many people must die before people accept the truth that futurist theology is nothing but a pack of lies? Futurist theology has done more than cause factions, it has caused murder. I'd say it more than qualifies as heresy. |
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Post by Morris on Mar 3, 2010 10:46:07 GMT -5
How many people must die before people accept the truth that futurist theology is nothing but a pack of lies? Futurist theology has done more than cause factions, it has caused murder. So has running shoes. I fully agree with you that futurism is a pack of lies. But so is self-righteousness and pride, and equally so. Should I be proud that I have seen the light regarding futurism? No, it should humble me. To have a correct understanding of all things in scripture, and not have love, is the same as having nothing. You may disagree, but true Christianity is an issue of the heart and of the conscience. It is these that will be judged by God and not an understanding of eschatology. I do not really understand how it is possible for me to be IN Christ and to participate in the divine nature. Thankfully, it is not a prerequisite to salvation. But this I fully understand, I will not be the judge of another person's salvation, lest I be condemned for it. |
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Post by didymus on Mar 3, 2010 12:35:48 GMT -5
Morris,
Is it a loving thing to see people heading toward eternity without God, and say nothing?
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Post by mellontes on Mar 3, 2010 12:53:36 GMT -5
Morris, Is it a loving thing to see people heading toward eternity without God, and say nothing? Tell me, is it their futurism that condemns them or is it their unforgiven sin? Did the thief on the cross have any clue of eschatology? No. Were you saved after only understanding all the views of eschatology (including preterism) and then choosing preterism? No. Didymus, for us to accept what you are attempting to teach, means that there are as many ways of salvation as there are individuals! Why? Because every single one of us is NOT in agreement about every single Scripture. Who becomes the standard of Truth since we are ALL disagreed in some points? To say Jesus would be meaningless because what Jesus said would have be interpreted by man, and that is the difficulty, isn't it? Didymus, please tell us when, where and how you were first saved. Please explain what you knew of eschatology at that time. I would be very interested in hearing your response on this and I think others would be too... |
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Post by Sower on Mar 3, 2010 13:25:42 GMT -5
Sower, I just watched that documentary again. Hi Didymus, where did you watch it? That's diabolical, and beyond sad.  Fanaticism unchecked can foster lunacy. True! Those that go to the extremes you mentioned are heretics. They probably aren't. That would not condone the heretical acts of some futurist. You have to love the Lord and his truth, more then the praise and doctrine of men to escape the grips of that diabolical futurist (dispensationalist) error. True! I believe it does matter, God is merciful and forgiving, remember apostle Paul..." Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" 1 Timothy 1:13 The Lord is no respecter of persons, he rescued us from the street called futurist, and set our feet on a street called preterist/biblist!  Thanks, Didymus you enjoy the day too! |
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Post by didymus on Mar 3, 2010 21:30:24 GMT -5
Morris, Is it a loving thing to see people heading toward eternity without God, and say nothing? Tell me, is it their futurism that condemns them or is it their unforgiven sin? Did the thief on the cross have any clue of eschatology? No. Were you saved after only understanding all the views of eschatology (including preterism) and then choosing preterism? No. Didymus, for us to accept what you are attempting to teach, means that there are as many ways of salvation as there are individuals! Why? Because every single one of us is NOT in agreement about every single Scripture. Who becomes the standard of Truth since we are ALL disagreed in some points? To say Jesus would be meaningless because what Jesus said would have be interpreted by man, and that is the difficulty, isn't it? Didymus, please tell us when, where and how you were first saved. Please explain what you knew of eschatology at that time. I would be very interested in hearing your response on this and I think others would be too... When was I saved? I have wondered that myself. Was I saved when I first believed. As far back as I remember, there was never a time when I didn't believe. Was I saved when I first repented? That was in October, 1974. Was I saved when I was baptized, as some teach. That was December 29, 1974. Was I saved when I learned all truth? But, then do I know all truth as of now. That's a good question. My answer to you is I am saved like all others who have been saved before me, and those that will be after me. At the cross is when Jesus paid the price for my sin as predetermined by God before the foundation of the world. That is when I was saved. The result of which is when I am confronted with truth I accept the truth, as would all whose sins are paid for by Christ. If it's true that we don't all agree on every point of doctrine, that is a problem since we are told in Scripture to "Speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement." (I Cor. 1.10) The standard of truth was, is, and always will be Christ. In another relply, you already agreed that futurism is a pack of lies. That makes it sin. Sin keeps us separated from God. That's not my judgement, it's God's judgement. |
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Post by didymus on Mar 3, 2010 21:38:15 GMT -5
Hi Didymus, where did you watch it? I have a copy it on a disk. Quote: My question: Now I have a question. Does it matter to God if someone is wrong in ignorance? Sower's answer: I believe it does matter, God is merciful and forgiving, remember apostle Paul..." Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" 1 Timothy 1:13 The Lord is no respecter of persons, he rescued us from the street called futurist, and set our feet on a street called preterist/biblist! My response to Sower: Acts 17.30 states, "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent." It does not matter to God if you are in sin ignorantly. He still commands all men everywhere to repent. |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 3, 2010 22:16:29 GMT -5
When was I saved? I have wondered that myself. Was I saved when I first believed. As far back as I remember, there was never a time when I didn't believe. Was I saved when I first repented? That was in October, 1974. Was I saved when I was baptized, as some teach. That was December 29, 1974. Was I saved when I learned all truth? But, then do I know all truth as of now. That's a good question. My answer to you is I am saved like all others who have been saved before me, and those that will be after me. At the cross is when Jesus paid the price for my sin as predetermined by God before the foundation of the world. That is when I was saved. The result of which is when I am confronted with truth I accept the truth, as would all whose sins are paid for by Christ. If it's true that we don't all agree on every point of doctrine, that is a problem since we are told in Scripture to "Speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement." (I Cor. 1.10) The standard of truth was, is, and always will be Christ. In another relply, you already agreed that futurism is a pack of lies. That makes it sin. Sin keeps us separated from God. That's not my judgement, it's God's judgement. Actually, I never spoke at all regarding " pack of lies" and " futurism" in another reply... I guess all that remains is what you would say to someone who was lost... And, bump to Theophilus... |
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Post by didymus on Mar 3, 2010 22:27:06 GMT -5
Actually, I never spoke at all regarding " pack of lies" and " futurism" in another reply... I realized that after I posted. Sorry. I got you mixed up with Morris. |
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Post by Sower on Mar 4, 2010 10:16:55 GMT -5
Now I have a question. Does it matter to God if someone is wrong in ignorance? Sower's answer: I believe it does matter, God is merciful and forgiving, remember apostle Paul..." Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" 1 Timothy 1:13 The Lord is no respecter of persons, he rescued us from the street called futurist, and set our feet on a street called preterist/biblist! My response to Sower: Acts 17.30 states, "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent." It does not matter to God if you are in sin ignorantly. He still commands all men everywhere to repent. True, and God still forgive those that sin ignorantly and repent, including saved futurist, preterist, biblist or whatever... 1 John 1:8 If WE say that We have no sin, We deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If WE confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Didymus, John spoke those words to saved people, agree or disagree? ;D Blessings to you, Sower~ |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 4, 2010 10:55:37 GMT -5
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Post by didymus on Mar 4, 2010 11:41:19 GMT -5
True, and God still forgive those that sin ignorantly and repent, including saved futurist, preterist, biblist or whatever... 1 John 1:8 If WE say that We have no sin, We deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If WE confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Didymus, John spoke those words to saved people, agree or disagree? ;D Blessings to you, Sower~ If a futurist repents, will they still be a futurist? If a murderer repents, will they still murder? If an adulterer repents, will they still commit adultery? The problem with Christianity today is that it has become a buffet religion. They pick what truth to believe, and leave the rest. That's why American Christianity is so divided. In I Corinthians 1-4, Paul wrote a lot about unity. On I Corinthians 12 Paul wrote about "one Spirit," "one Lord," and "one Body." I don't see that in Amercan Christianity, do you? Since disunity is a violation of Scritpure, is it not sin? What is it that keeps us divided? Is it not the many man-made doctrines that have come about over the past 1900 years. Hence, are not all these man-made doctrines heretical, as they have caused division? And that includes futurism. Isn't high time for us to accept truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Jesus said, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few that find it." (Matthew 7.13,14) That is no less true today than it was then. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no goes to the Father but through Him. Notice the word truth. Jesus is the truth. Any doctrine not of Christ is a lie, which includes futurism. Therefore it is sin. Do you understand? These are not my ideas, they come from Christ. |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 4, 2010 11:54:31 GMT -5
If a futurist repents, will they still be a futurist? If a murderer repents, will they still murder? If an adulterer repents, will they still commit adultery? The problem with Christianity today is that it has become a buffet religion. They pick what truth to believe, and leave the rest. That's why American Christianity is so divided. In I Corinthians 1-4, Paul wrote a lot about unity. On I Corinthians 12 Paul wrote about "one Spirit," "one Lord," and "one Body." I don't see that in Amercan Christianity, do you? Since disunity is a violation of Scritpure, is it not sin? What is it that keeps us divided? Is it not the many man-made doctrines that have come about over the past 1900 years. Hence, are not all these man-made doctrines heretical, as they have caused division? And that includes futurism. Isn't high time for us to accept truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Jesus said, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few that find it." (Matthew 7.13,14) That is no less true today than it was then. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no goes to the Father but through Him. Notice the word truth. Jesus is the truth. Any doctrine not of Christ is a lie, which includes futurism. Therefore it is sin. Do you understand? These are not my ideas, they come from Christ. Didymus, Yes or no, should believers celebrate communion? Yes or no, should people go to churches where there is plurality of elders? Is Genesis one speaking of a literal, physical creation or of covenant creation, or of a temple construct? Is baptism the sprinkling of water, the immersion in water, or unnecessary since it relates to the work of God? I could go on listing hundreds of questions, and many of which you do not know the answer. And if you do not know the answer, by what authority do you propose how an individual is to be saved? Also, in a previous post of mine in which you partly addressed, I indicated that it would be nice to see what you would say to others in order for them to receive eternal Life. But now, I am officially asking what it is you would tell them. I would like to know the Gospel according to Didymus... |
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Post by Morris on Mar 4, 2010 14:35:30 GMT -5
Actually, I never spoke at all regarding " pack of lies" and " futurism" in another reply... I realized that after I posted. Sorry. I got you mixed up with Morris.  No problem. However, I will use this as an example where a person acted (made a comment/post) based on a belief that turned out to be completely untrue. (Just using this as an illustration). That is what some Christians do when they support a 'pro-Israel' campaign; they act on a belief, not realizing that the belief is in error. I cannot condemn someone for acting according to their conscience. If that is a sin, it will be God that judges it so, not me. Are we sinning by paying taxes to our governments if those funds are then used in a sinful manner? What if I donate to a Christian charity and was never aware that the funds were misappropriated and used to aid terrorist cells? I did agree with you that futurism is a 'pack of lies'. But people that believe in it don't understand that it is "packed" with lies. I didn't. Now, if we go off heralding everyone as a heretic and judging them for their beliefs, we can be sure of this; God will judge our beliefs, and I don't know about you but I'm not so willing to say I have everything all figured out to absolute truth. Beyond that, why should someone listen to a stranger spouting off some new-fangled doctrine to them as heretics, when those they have a relationship of trust and love, tell them otherwise. We have to earn the right to speak into someone else's life. |
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Post by Morris on Mar 4, 2010 14:43:57 GMT -5
Morris, Is it a loving thing to see people heading toward eternity without God, and say nothing? Not at all. We are called to be ambassadors of Christ and to declare His Kingdom to all others through the gospel. |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 4, 2010 14:48:49 GMT -5
Morris, Is it a loving thing to see people heading toward eternity without God, and say nothing? Not at all. We are called to be ambassadors of Christ and to declare His Kingdom to all others through the gospel. I am looking forward to hearing from Didymus as to exactly what we should be saying to those without God. I am getting the idea from him that the Gospel does not even come close to alleviating the sin problem... |
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Post by didymus on Mar 4, 2010 15:31:31 GMT -5
I realized that after I posted. Sorry. I got you mixed up with Morris. No problem. However, I will use this as an example where a person acted (made a comment/post) based on a belief that turned out to be completely untrue. (Just using this as an illustration). If your point that men are imperfect, including me, duly noted. What does the Bible say about conscience. Does it not teach that we should purge our conscience of dead works? If we have a conscience toward God, would we not accept the truth when confronted with it? Jesus taught the disciples to pay their taxes to the Roman government, and I don't think the Roman Empire was pure, do you? Me either. But when confronted with the truth, I accepted it, as you did. But, there are those who simply continue to fight. I do know some futurists that are open, and are willing to study, and truly seeking the truth. However, there are those who simply cast aspersions on people who do accept the truth. They might, in time, see the truth and repent. But as of now, I don't see that they have a conscience toward God. I might be wrong, as I am not perfect. True, God will judge our beliefs. Of that I have no fear. I have a conscience toward, and want to know the truth of God's Word no matter where it leads. "New-fangled" doctrine. What about a doctrine that started in 1850 with a 15 year old girl who ahd a dream. That dream picked up by John Darby and made it part of his message. Then picked up by CI Schofield who put this "new-fangled" doctrine in a chain reference Bible. That doctrine is the "rapture." We not only have the right, but we have the duty the teach the truth. |
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Post by didymus on Mar 4, 2010 15:39:59 GMT -5
Not at all. We are called to be ambassadors of Christ and to declare His Kingdom to all others through the gospel. I am looking forward to hearing from Didymus as to exactly what we should be saying to those without God. I am getting the idea from him that the Gospel does not even come close to alleviating the sin problem... I will answer with a question. What is the gospel? |
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Post by mellontes on Mar 4, 2010 16:06:07 GMT -5
I am looking forward to hearing from Didymus as to exactly what we should be saying to those without God. I am getting the idea from him that the Gospel does not even come close to alleviating the sin problem... I will answer with a question. What is the gospel? That is exactly what I am asking you... What is it you believe that puts a lost sinner on to the path of righteousness and how would you explain it to someone who needs that information? |
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Post by Sower on Mar 4, 2010 16:53:58 GMT -5
If a futurist repents, will they still be a futurist? I don't know! There are partial preterist, and that's akin to futurist preterist.  No, they shouln't! No, they shouldn't. How so? The truth is, that's in all denominations and churches, not just American Christianity. No! However, Paul that spoke those words experienced disunity first hand when he withstood Peter to his face in Antioch, and blamed him for the confusion among the brethren for circumcision. (Galatians 2). Circumcison, the law, eating food offered to animals were contentious issues in the first church, but they were still saved. Disunity/strife is sin, but it's not a requirsite for salvation, else Paul, Peter, you and I would be in trouble, considering Jesus said,"judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1 We all judge sometimes, are we sinning? Preterism, biblism and all "isms" ;D Yes! What is truth? Jesus (John 14:6). True, Jesus said... John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man "enter in," he shall BE SAVED, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Thus, all must enter through "the door" Jesus, and they will go in and out to find pasture/food, and it might be some good and/or bad pasture, but they are still saved. Amen! Futurism is of Christ, but it includes error, as does preterism, biblist, and all other "isms." Didymus, I know you feel strongly about this, and I do as well, but the truth remains that faith in Jesus is the door to salvation, and anything more is error. Blessings, dear brother  Sower~ |
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Post by Morris on Mar 4, 2010 17:37:14 GMT -5
What does the Bible say about conscience. Does it not teach that we should purge our conscience of dead works? If we have a conscience toward God, would we not accept the truth when confronted with it? That would make us perfect judges, and that is something we are not. Exactly. Actually, I said that IF we judge others by their beliefs, THEN we will be judged by ours. As far as I am aware, scripture does not tell us we will deemed righteous by belief system, by rather by being IN Christ. By "New-fangled", I meant from their perspective. The "truth" is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. That is our duty. But to speak into someone's life is to be earned. |
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Post by Sower on Mar 4, 2010 18:47:31 GMT -5
Morris, Is it a loving thing to see people heading toward eternity without God, and say nothing? Not at all. We are called to be ambassadors of Christ and to declare His Kingdom to all others through the gospel. Amen! Sower~ |
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Post by didymus on Mar 4, 2010 23:42:32 GMT -5
Anyone who wants to know my understanding of the gospel can go to the "Any Topic Discussion" forum and find out.
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Post by Theophilus on Mar 10, 2010 10:09:54 GMT -5
I do hope you will take the time to respond to my last few postings that were addressed to you. It's not like you to "hit and run." I thought I did. Getting back to Acts 17:30-32, my argument is very simple. The thrust of Paul's argument in Acts 17:22-33 is that the Athenian pagans must repent because they will be judged along with the rest of the world on a particular day. Why must one repent before judgment? Obviously, you must repent before that day comes, because once that day comes, it will be too late to repent. If we suppose that day is 70AD, would that make sense of Paul's reasoning? Would the Athenians be unable to repent once 70AD came? Obviously the Athenians could still repent. Therefore, the day cannot refer to 70AD. If we suppose that day is "the last day," the day of the resurrection of the dead (plural) - see Acts 17:32 - then it makes perfect sense. Because once that day comes, God will judge both the living and the dead, the whole world, all nations, all generations on the same day. Once that day comes, there will be no more opportunity for anyone to repent. You must repent before you are judged. If the Athenians were judged in 70AD, then they couldn't repent after that date. Which is obviously not correct. I just completed an extensive study on Jesus' Olivet Discourse, Matt. 24 & 25, which I am about to post on another thread here. It will show that, according to the context, the judgment of 70AD is not for all nations nor for all generations, but only the Jews of that generation who rejected Christ. Matt. 24 & 25 does not say anything about the rapture, the resurrection, or the judging of the whole world. |
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