If the resurrection is spiritual...

[Once4all]

Jan 29, 2010 9:24:49 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

...

When Jesus was incarnated, it is said that He came in "likeness" of flesh. It does not say human "flesh." But that is exactly how we interpret it. Jesus appeared in the last days. I think He began in the old covenant and ended in the new covenant.
...

Incarnation aside, I find this to be a most intriguing thought!

Assuming you are alluding to Romans 8:3, it is quite interesting to follow that thought on through that Romans passage.

Bev

[mellontes]

Jan 29, 2010 11:21:53 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Jan 29, 2010 9:24:49 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

...

When Jesus was incarnated, it is said that He came in "likeness" of flesh. It does not say human "flesh." But that is exactly how we interpret it. Jesus appeared in the last days. I think He began in the old covenant and ended in the new covenant.
...

Incarnation aside, I find this to be a most intriguing thought!

Assuming you are alluding to Romans 8:3, it is quite interesting to follow that thought on through that Romans passage.

Bev

You quoted Romans 8:3...

Romans 8:3 - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Here are some additional verses as to the "sending"...

Galatians 4:4 - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Some notes about John 3:17. It is not speaking about the planet. Christ's mission was strictly to the house of Israel. The "kosmos" in all three instances refers to the old covenant body of fleshly Israel.

Doing the study on "flesh" "flesh and blood" flesh and bone" and other such occurrences (bondage, sin, etc.) and to see how they are compared with the spirit, freedom, promise, etc. is a MOST interesting study.

It is only after doing this study and realizing the two covenant bodies can one realistically understand the resurrection of 1 Cor 15. The focus is upon the "dead ones" as a whole...plus those pesky present passives.

[Theophilus]

Jan 29, 2010 9:17:59 GMT -5 Sower said:

You said Jesus entered heaven in his resurrected body, and our resurrection will be like his.
You do realize Jesus resurrected body still bore the nail holes in his hands, and the wound in his side when he appeared to Thomas. If Jesus entered heaven in that body (as you say), and the saints will enter heaven in the bodies they were buried with,
The scene in heaven would be pretty macabre) with people that have been shot, blown up by bombs, lost limbs, burned up in fires and, amputes etc. walking around heaven in the bodies they were buried with.

Ironically, that is the very objection raised by those who denied the doctrine of the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 - see verses 12 & 35. Obviously the dead bodies are not raised up, because imagine how ghastly they would be! But since you are sincere (whereas the people in 1 Cor. 15 weren't), I'll respond in a nicer manner than Paul did (see 1 Cor. 15:36a).



It was necessary for Jesus to leave His wounds as they were, since they were used to prove that He really had been resurrected in the same body that He died with (Luke 24:38-39, John 20:27). Now that He has long since established this, who knows if He still retains these scars or not.

Jesus has already proven that He has the power to restore decomposed bodies. This is why Jesus deliberately waits (John 11:11-17) until the 4th day to show up and raise Lazarus. In that climate, dead bodies usually began to stink on the 4th day, thus proof decomposition had set in (John 11:39). The point was, if He can restore a body that was dead 4 days, He could restore any dead body, because He not only had power over death, but power over decomposition, too.

It was one thing to raise a body that was "freshly" dead. It is another magnitude to physically restore someone who was not only dead, but had rotted. When He raised Lazarus, the rotting that had occurred had been undone by His miraculous power. So it is an easy thing to imagine that God will restore the appearance of the resurrected dead.

[mellontes]

May I also add that you do a study on "glorious" and "glory" in relation to the two covenant bodies. I have had futurists and preterists alike proudly proclaim how that one day we are going to get a "glorified" body one day.

The trouble with all this kind of talk and decomposed bodies coming back to some kind of life and being changed to fit the heavenly realm is that it has nothing to do with the resurrection.

Hint: The glorified body is the body of Christ. Next hint: Who is the body of Christ?

[Theophilus]

Jan 29, 2010 9:24:49 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

When Paul got salvation on the Damascus road the Bible says he did not confer with flesh and blood. Most would say this is just a bland reference to people in general but I think it is much more specific as referring to his Pharisee roots. It might very well have been the Sanhedrin council. I just think it is old covenant related.

Context is everything. The false teachers in the Galatian church had to attack the integrity of Paul in order to attack his Gospel. In Galatians ch. 1-2, Paul reestablishes his authority (and thus the truthfulness of his Gospel) by demonstrating that he did not rely on what people told him, but on revelation received directly from God Himself.

I didn't understand your analogy, could you clarify for me?

[Theophilus]

mellontes, are you the one that believes 1 Cor. 15 teaches that all Christians will be raised in a single body, rather than individual bodies? What about Rom. 8:10-11, which says the Spirit will give life, raise our mortal bodies (plural)? That indicates the resurrection of bodies, not just a single body.

[mellontes]

Jan 29, 2010 14:27:16 GMT -5 Theophilus said:

mellontes, are you the one that believes 1 Cor. 15 teaches that all Christians will be raised in a single body, rather than individual bodies? What about Rom. 8:10-11, which says the Spirit will give life, raise our mortal bodies (plural)? That indicates the resurrection of bodies, not just a single body.

Are you now saying that you have NOT been "quickened" (made alive) by the Spirit of God? Your answer is very important to resurrection doctrine...

Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Have you done those two studies (glory, flesh) as yet. If not, I will face the same questions I have been asked many times. Your previous post is proof of just that...

You said:

"Context is everything. The false teachers in the Galatian church had to attack the integrity of Paul in order to attack his Gospel. In Galatians ch. 1-2, Paul reestablishes his authority (and thus the truthfulness of his Gospel) by demonstrating that he did not rely on what people told him, but on revelation received directly from God Himself."

I have taken the liberty to bold the phrase that points out exactly what I meant...

And yes, individual people are quickened. Please try to understand that resurrection is not a doctrine based solely on what happens after the physical death of a person. Try to think of it as being raised from the dead. I was raised from the dead more than 40 years ago!

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

...plus many other death, dead and alive, life type verses...

[Theophilus]

Jan 29, 2010 16:04:50 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

Are you now saying that you have NOT been "quickened" (made alive) by the Spirit of God? Your answer is very important to resurrection doctrine...

First, you didn't answer my question about Rom. 8:10-11.

Second, once I reached a certain level of maturity, I became morally responsible for my decisions. The first time I sinned, at that point, I died spiritually. When I was baptized into Christ, I received the gift of the Spirit, which among other things, means that I was spiritually made alive again that very moment.

The spiritual life that I received from the Holy Spirit means that my spirit, which was once dead, was now alive forever (so long as I continue to walk in the light). Someday, my body will die. At a later time, the Holy Spirit will give life to my body, life that will continue forever, never to die again. Which is what is taught in Rom. 8:10-11.

Jan 29, 2010 16:04:50 GMT -5 @mellontes said:

If not, I will face the same questions I have been asked many times. Your previous post is proof of just that...

You have heard that before because it is true - that is what it means in its context.

[Sower]

Jan 29, 2010 14:15:05 GMT -5 Theophilus said:

Jan 29, 2010 9:17:59 GMT -5 Sower said:

You said Jesus entered heaven in his resurrected body, and our resurrection will be like his.
You do realize Jesus resurrected body still bore the nail holes in his hands, and the wound in his side when he appeared to Thomas. If Jesus entered heaven in that body (as you say), and the saints will enter heaven in the bodies they were buried with,
The scene in heaven would be pretty macabre) with people that have been shot, blown up by bombs, lost limbs, burned up in fires and, amputes etc. walking around heaven in the bodies they were buried with.

I didn't even mention those decapitate.

Ironically, that is the very objection raised by those who denied the doctrine of the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 - see verses 12 & 35.

I see no denial in those verses.

Obviously the dead bodies are not raised up, because imagine how ghastly they would be!

Nor, is what you said there.

But since you are sincere (whereas the people in 1 Cor. 15 weren't), I'll respond in a nicer manner than Paul did (see 1 Cor. 15:36a).

Except you can prove the people in 1 Corinthians 15, said what you allege, you seem to be trying to discredit me through false allegations. That's not responding in a nice manner.

It was necessary for Jesus to leave His wounds as they were, since they were used to prove that He really had been resurrected in the same body that He died with (Luke 24:38-39, John 20:27).

Exactly! You denied that, until pointed out what Thomas said (John 20:27).

Now that He has long since established this, who knows if He still retains these scars or not.

You argued he ascended to heaven with that body, and we would be resurrected to heaven in the body we were buried.

Jesus has already proven that He has the power to restore decomposed bodies. This is why Jesus deliberately waits (John 11:11-17) until the 4th day to show up and raise Lazarus. In that climate, dead bodies usually began to stink on the 4th day, thus proof decomposition had set in (John 11:39). The point was, if He can restore a body that was dead 4 days, He could restore any dead body, because He not only had power over death, but power over decomposition, too.

It was one thing to raise a body that was "freshly" dead. It is another magnitude to physically restore someone who was not only dead, but had rotted. When He raised Lazarus, the rotting that had occurred had been undone by His miraculous power. So it is an easy thing to imagine that God will restore the appearance of the resurrected dead.

Scripture does not teach a restoration of the old body, but rather give the seed that was sown/buried a body as pleases him
(1 Corinthians 15:37-38).

The Sower~

[Once4all]

Some reflections on Romans 8:10-11. I think verses 12 and 13 must be included in order to more fully understand what 10 and 11 is about.

Romans 8:10-13 NASB
(10) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

When you first receive Christ, body and spirit are dead because of sin. But the spirit of Christ given to you renews, quickens, gives life to your spirit. This is the earnest/pledge/seal/down payment given (Ephesians 1:13-14).

(11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Through this spirit of righteousness by which you live in accordance with, you will cease from sinning. By ceasing from sin, your mortal body is also renewed/redeemed.

(12) So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
(13) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The bolded text repeats what I had just written.

(Romans 8:23 NASB) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

I'm getting carried along by the scripture. This can go on and on. To be brief, I think there's a two-stage process at work. The initial giving of the spirit and forgiveness of sins. By this renewed spirit, we now present our members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification (Romans 6:19). The outcome of sanctification is eternal life (Romans 6:22).

The will of God is for our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3), which is described in terms of deeds done in the body. The Holy Spirit was given to us for our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).

Galatians 6:7-9.

(1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:27-28.

OK, I'm DONE. I know my posts can get confusing. I shouldn't wonder when I don't get replies. ;D

[stephenpatrick]

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Some reflections on Romans 8:10-11. I think verses 12 and 13 must be included in order to more fully understand what 10 and 11 is about.

Romans 8:10-13 NASB
(10) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

When you first receive Christ, body and spirit are dead because of sin. But the spirit of Christ given to you renews, quickens, gives life to your spirit. This is the earnest/pledge/seal/down payment given (Ephesians 1:13-14).

(11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Through this spirit of righteousness by which you live in accordance with, you will cease from sinning. By ceasing from sin, your mortal body is also renewed/redeemed.

(12) So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
(13) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The bolded text repeats what I had just written.

(Romans 8:23 NASB) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

I'm getting carried along by the scripture. This can go on and on. To be brief, I think there's a two-stage process at work. The initial giving of the spirit and forgiveness of sins. By this renewed spirit, we now present our members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification (Romans 6:19). The outcome of sanctification is eternal life (Romans 6:22).

The will of God is for our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3), which is described in terms of deeds done in the body. The Holy Spirit was given to us for our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).

Galatians 6:7-9.

(1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:27-28.

OK, I'm DONE. I know my posts can get confusing. I shouldn't wonder when I don't get replies. ;D

Hi Bev.

I usually read every thread and replies during the week. And then I read it again. I find the topics fascinating, and difficult sometimes to have it sink in and have the light go on. Your posts aren't confusing, but some of us (me) are at different levels in putting the pieces together. I'd reply more often, but honestly, I'm just one of the students here. I think you do an excellent job.

Blessings

[Allyn]

Hi Bev,

Be encouraged, sister. Sometimes non-replies mean you made good points or at least very thought provoking points. I find all of your entries to be well thought out. I admit that my silence has been because of my busy activity with Preterist Gear, but I do scroll through the new posts everyday.

[Once4all]

Steve and Allyn, you both are great encouragers! Thank you for your kind words.

Bev

[Theophilus]

Jan 29, 2010 18:09:13 GMT -5 Sower said:

Ironically, that is the very objection raised by those who denied the doctrine of the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 - see verses 12 & 35.

I see no denial in those verses.

Obviously the dead bodies are not raised up, because imagine how ghastly they would be!

Nor, is what you said there.

Have you read my thread on 1 Cor. 15 yet? I've explained it in detail.

In 1 Cor. 15:35, 2 questions are posed: "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" What is Paul's response to these questions? Aphron. That is the Greek. In English, it can be rendered with: "Hey stupid!" "You moron!" "When it comes to brains, you got the short end of the stick!" Or in case of the NASB, "You fool!"

What kind of Gospel preacher is that?! An honest seeker, thirsty to learn about the Good News, asks a sincere question about the faith, and Paul has the nerve to insult him!

Seeker: "What must I do to be saved?"
Paul: "You moron!"

Christian: "Paul, can you help explain this particular doctrine to me?
Paul: "What an idiot!"

Elder: "Paul, can you clarify what you talked about earlier?"
Paul: "I bet you road the short bus to school!"

Why oh why does Paul insult people just for asking a simple question or two?! Hint: the answer is found in my 1 Cor. 15 thread. When you understand that, you will understand that what you said earlier was what the scoffers said, too.

Jan 29, 2010 18:09:13 GMT -5 Sower said:

It was necessary for Jesus to leave His wounds as they were, since they were used to prove that He really had been resurrected in the same body that He died with (Luke 24:38-39, John 20:27).

Exactly! You denied that, until pointed out what Thomas said (John 20:27).

Au contraire. Here is what you said earlier:

Jan 29, 2010 18:09:13 GMT -5 Sower said:

How else could he manifest himself to his disciples on the earth?

And I replied: "Jesus didn't have to appear in His flesh and bone body. He could have appeared to them in a vision, like you believe He did to Paul."

In order to manifest Himself to them, He could have simply appeared to them in a vision. But in order to convince them He had been resurrected, He had to appear in His body with the scars from His crucifixion.

Jan 29, 2010 18:09:13 GMT -5 Sower said:

Scripture does not teach a restoration of the old body, but rather give the seed that was sown/buried a body as pleases him
(1 Corinthians 15:37-38).

Please stop pulling verses out of context. I have already explained at length how the context of 1 Cor. 15 rules out a "spirit resurrection." You want to disagree with my interpretation of 1 Cor. 15? Fine. Disagree by showing where and how I got the context all wrong.

[Theophilus]

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Some reflections on Romans 8:10-11. I think verses 12 and 13 must be included in order to more fully understand what 10 and 11 is about.

The more context, the better!

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Romans 8:10-13 NASB
(10) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

When you first receive Christ, body and spirit are dead because of sin. But the spirit of Christ given to you renews, quickens, gives life to your spirit.

I agree.

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

(11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Through this spirit of righteousness by which you live in accordance with, you will cease from sinning. By ceasing from sin, your mortal body is also renewed/redeemed.

"Giving life to your mortal bodies" in this verse is said to be the same thing that the Spirit did in the (physical) resurrection of Jesus. Did Jesus have to stop sinning in order to have His body renewed?!

The verse is straightforward - just as the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, the Spirit will do the same for the Christian - resurrection from the dead. What kind of resurrection? A physical, bodily resurrection, just like Jesus'. Hence the Spirit will "give life to your mortal bodies."

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

(13) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The bolded text repeats what I had just written.

Yes, but what you wrote didn't actually correspond to v.11, but to v.9. In v.9, Paul establishes who he is talking about in v.10-11 - those who "are not in the flesh but in the Spirit." That is, those who are not living according to the desires of the flesh, but to the desires of God. These people have the Spirit. In v.10-11, Paul explains that these people have spiritual life, and will receive physical life. What kind of physical life? The kind Jesus received in His resurrection.

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

(Romans 8:23 NASB) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Exactly! Christians already have spiritual life (v.10), and we are groaning in anticipation of receiving "the redemption of our body," "life to our mortal bodies," a physical, bodily resurrection just like Jesus' (v.11).

[Allyn]

Jan 30, 2010 1:16:29 GMT -5 Theophilus said:

Jan 29, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5 Once4all said:

The verse is straightforward - just as the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, the Spirit will do the same for the Christian - resurrection from the dead. What kind of resurrection? A physical, bodily resurrection, just like Jesus'. Hence the Spirit will "give life to your mortal bodies."

Hi Members,

My opinion is that the subject of the matter is not that the Spirit is doing the same thing in us as He did in Christ but rather that it is the SAME Spirit who raised Christ is the Same Spirit who gives life to our mortal bodies. It not the same act of resurrection that is being done but the Same Spirit doing the act of giving life by way of Jesus' death burial and resurrection. Thus our acceptance of His sacrifice on our behalf justifies us before God. Our acceptance then produces in us a likeness to His death burial and resurrection. Therefore when we have died to sin we are made alive in Christ. This is what the Spirit of God does for those not now (because of Christ) living for the flesh yet we are in the mortal flesh.

Jesus said in John 11 to Martha - "I am the resurrection and the life". The resurrection being the hope of Israel and the Life being the hope which in effect makes us His church. The Church and its single members are already alive in the Spirit of God. That old man of sin has died and buried and the new creature in Christ has been raised in the newness of life - not after physical death but now as we live in mortal bodies. This is why Jesus could say to Martha - "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The believer is not only living and breathing as a mortal physical body, but in Christ we are living and breathing the life giving Spirit of God (the same who raised Christ) and shall never die.

[MoGrace2U]

I agree with Allyn. Paul's argument in Roman's is about the living who are quickened in their mortal bodies to life in Christ. Whereas the argument in 1 Cor 15 is about what happens to the soul when that mortal body dies. The parallelism to Christ's own resurrection is applied to the living soul before he dies, so that he can pass thru death unscathed by it.

[Sower]

Hi Bev,

I also read your post, and enjoy them very much!

The Sower~

[Sower]

Jan 30, 2010 9:45:05 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

I agree with Allyn. Paul's argument in Roman's is about the living who are quickened in their mortal bodies to life in Christ. Whereas the argument in 1 Cor 15 is about what happens to the soul when that mortal body dies. The parallelism to Christ's own resurrection is applied to the living soul before he dies, so that he can pass thru death unscathed by it.

MoGrace2u,

I agree with you, and Allyn!

The Sower~

[Theophilus]

Jan 30, 2010 8:53:40 GMT -5 Allyn said:

My opinion is that the subject of the matter is not that the Spirit is doing the same thing in us as He did in Christ but rather that it is the SAME Spirit who raised Christ is the Same Spirit who gives life to our mortal bodies. It not the same act of resurrection that is being done but the Same Spirit doing the act of giving life by way of Jesus' death burial and resurrection.

But that isn't what Rom. 8:11 says. "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

That sentence has 2 parts:

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you..."

If you have the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised up Jesus' dead body...

"He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

The Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead, will likewise raise your bodies from the dead.

It does not say: "His resurrection from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies." The power of resurrection doesn't come from resurrection, but from the Holy Spirit. Our mortal bodies won't be given life from Jesus' physical resurrection, but by the power of the life-giving Spirit.

What kind of life does the Spirit give? Everlasting life. The Christian already has received everlasting spiritual life (v.10), and will receive in the future everlasting physical life to their mortal bodies. Just like Jesus did, for His body was (physically) raised never to die again (Rom. 6:9).

Jan 30, 2010 8:53:40 GMT -5 Allyn said:

The Church and its single members are already alive in the Spirit of God. That old man of sin has died and buried and the new creature in Christ has been raised in the newness of life - not after physical death but now as we live in mortal bodies.

According to Rom. 6:5-9, Christians will (future, not present) be in the likeness of His resurrection. Just as Rom. 8:11 says, we will be resurrected just like Jesus was. In Rom. 6:8, Christians believe that we will (future) live with Him.

So what Paul is talking about is something Christians do not presently have, but will have in the future. The Christian already has spiritual life, so that can't be what Paul is talking about. The Christian already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so that can't be it. The Christian has already died to sin, a new way to live, so that isn't it. So what is it, what is this life we are yet to receive?

A resurrection like Jesus', life to our mortal bodies, life so that our mortal bodies never die.

In John 11:25-26, Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." Let's break it down into its 3 parts:

"I am the resurrection and the life,"

When Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life," "resurrection" = everlasting physical life, and "life" = everlasting spiritual life. See below.

"he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,"

What kind of life is He talking about in this 2nd part of the sentence? It can't be physical life, because he still has life though he dies. A follower of Jesus has spiritual life, which continues to live, even if the Christian physically dies.

"and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."

In this 3rd part, He cannot be referring to spiritual life, because Christians, who are spiritually alive, do die physically, just as He said in the previous phrase ("even though he dies"). So in this 3rd part, Jesus speaks of physical life. The Christian who is made physically alive (resurrection) will never die.

The mortal body is raised immortal. The perishable is raised imperishable.

So Jesus establishes spiritual life, and then physical life (resurrection), just like Paul does in Rom. 10:10-11: first spiritual life, and then physical life.

[Theophilus]

Jan 30, 2010 9:45:05 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Whereas the argument in 1 Cor 15 is about what happens to the soul when that mortal body dies.

That is not the argument in 1 Cor. 15. The argument in 1 Cor. 15 is about the resurrection of the dead. There were some in the Corinthian church who denied the resurrection of the dead, period. They denied the resurrection, including the resurrection of Jesus. This is all laid out in my 1 Cor. 15 thread that no one wants to respond to. The context is very clear, if people will address it, and the context makes demands that Paul is teaching a physical resurrection.

Jan 30, 2010 9:45:05 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

The parallelism to Christ's own resurrection is applied to the living soul before he dies, so that he can pass thru death unscathed by it.

If this life that is given to our mortal bodies is received before our physical deaths, then why is it described as future in Rom. 8:11? Why can't someone who, has the Spirit dwelling within them, who has put to death the ways of the flesh, and who is spiritually alive, why do they not yet have this thing Paul talks about? In Rom. 8:23, Paul is still waiting for it. He is still waiting to receive life to his mortal body, for his dead body to be redeemed.

The same goes for Rom. 6:5, Rom. 6:8, they are future. Why?

[Sower]

Jan 30, 2010 0:33:08 GMT -5 Theophilus said:

Jan 29, 2010 18:09:13 GMT -5 Sower said:

Have you read my thread on 1 Cor. 15 yet? I've explained it in detail.

Yes, I disagree with it!

Au contraire. Here is what you said earlier:

I said, Jesus appeared to prove he had risen from the dead as he promised. To which you replied...

In order to manifest Himself to them, He could have simply appeared to them in a vision.

I said, not so. Remember what Thomas said (John 20:27)? I then asked if a vision would have convinced Thomas? You ignored my question.

But in order to convince them He had been resurrected, He had to appear in His body with the scars from His crucifixion.

I said that, not you.

Jan 29, 2010 18:09:13 GMT -5 Sower said:

Scripture does not teach a restoration of the old body, but rather give the seed that was sown/buried a body as pleases him
(1 Corinthians 15:37-38).

Please stop pulling verses out of context.

Sorry, you don't like to see scripture that refute your argument.

I have already explained at length how the context of 1 Cor. 15 rules out a "spirit resurrection." You want to disagree with my interpretation of 1 Cor. 15?

Yes!

Fine. Disagree by showing where and how I got the context all wrong.

I do that by refuting it with scripture!

The Sower~

[MoGrace2U]

Theo,
The argument from Paul that precedes ch 8 is about the struggle with sin by which the indwelling Spirit of Christ gives us power to overcome. That same life giving power by which the dead are raised (example is Jesus), is what we have now by the same Spirit who quickens our mortal bodies.

A mortal body is one that is liable to die, but is not dead yet.

[Once4all]

Jan 30, 2010 10:13:37 GMT -5 Sower said:

Hi Bev,

I also read your post, and enjoy them very much!

The Sower~

Thanks, m'Lady!

I'd also like to encourage Theophilus. As fun and fulfilling as it is to discuss Bible doctrine with others who love the Word, it can get discouraging when you know you're the only person in the conversation holding a particular view. Let's all remember to season our words with love.

Bev

[Theophilus]

Jan 30, 2010 10:48:36 GMT -5 Sower said:

Yes, I disagree with it!

Great, then don't just tell me I'm wrong, show me how I'm wrong! But you can't. What is the context behind 1 Cor. 15? Who is Paul arguing against? What is he arguing against? Why do these people believe what they believe? Why does he respond in such a contemptible manner to what appears to be such a simple question? Why does Paul insult people for asking about the resurrected body (1 Cor. 15:36a)?

If you can't answer those questions, then you don't know the context, you don't know who Paul is arguing against, you don't know what he is arguing against, and therefore, you don't know what Paul is arguing.

I've already explained what I think the context is, and it fits the whole chapter, including the various transitions within the chapter, perfectly.

If you can't show how I got the context wrong, and yet continue to say "You're just wrong," the objective reader will be led to conclude that you are in denial.

Jan 30, 2010 10:48:36 GMT -5 Sower said:

But in order to convince them He had been resurrected, He had to appear in His body with the scars from His crucifixion.

I said that, not you.

And you are wrong about this a second time now. Go back to reply #18. Perhaps you are confused because you messed up the quotes in that post. You said: "How else could he manifest himself to his disciples on the earth?"

Jesus didn't have to appear in His flesh to merely manifest Himself to His Apostles. If that was all He wanted to do, He could have appeared to them in a vision.

Jan 30, 2010 10:48:36 GMT -5 Sower said:

Sorry, you don't like to see scripture that refute your argument.

And I'm sorry you don't like looking at the context which refutes your interpretation. So are you gonna respond yet again with a "You're wrong," or are you gonna actually get into the context? Only those who pull stuff out of context refuse to examine the context.

Jan 30, 2010 10:48:36 GMT -5 Sower said:

Fine. Disagree by showing where and how I got the context all wrong.

I do that by refuting it with scripture! pulling scripture out of context!

Fixed.

[Sower]

Jan 30, 2010 14:24:49 GMT -5 Theophilus said:

Jan 30, 2010 10:48:36 GMT -5 Sower said:

Yes, I disagree with it!

Great, then don't just tell me I'm wrong, show me how I'm wrong!

I Do!

But you can't.

I've shown you with scripture.

What is the context behind 1 Cor. 15? Who is Paul arguing against? What is he arguing against? Why do these people believe what they believe? Why does he respond in such a contemptible manner to what appears to be such a simple question? Why does Paul insult people for asking about the resurrected body (1 Cor. 15:36a)?

If you can't answer those questions, then you don't know the context, you don't know who Paul is arguing against, you don't know what he is arguing against, and therefore, you don't know what Paul is arguing.

I only want to know the answer to the question..."HOW are the dead raised? and with WHAT "kind" of body do they come? (1 Corinthians 15:35), and Paul's answer (1 Corinthians 15:37-50).

I've already explained what I think the context is, and it fits the whole chapter, including the various transitions within the chapter, perfectly.

If you can't show how I got the context wrong, and yet continue to say "You're just wrong," the objective reader will be led to conclude that you are in denial.

I only care about the question..."How are the dead raised? and with what body do they come"? and Paul's answer (1 Corinthians 15:35-50).

If the objective reader is interested in what you think the context is and how it fits the various chapters and transition within the chapter, perhaps they will engage you in that part.

Only those who pull stuff out of context refuse to examine the context.

I examine the context before I post the scripture.

The Sower~

[mellontes]

And then there is me...with my two covenant bodies.

The mortal body is the first covenant body.
The immortal body is the second covenant body in Christ.

The body has nothing at all to do with human flesh.

The entire NT deals with the exchange and tnsistions of covenants and hence the covenant bodies.

You will find all this to be true once you have studied out all those "flesh" items and see how it is contrasted to the spirit items. Then there is those "glory" and "glorious" items.

And then there is all those pesky present passive verbs in 1 Cor 15 such as "is being raised..."

I think this is the last time I will challenge people to study this out to get rid of the obsession that many people (including preterists) have about the physical human body being involved in redemption. It was not involved in the fall.

The Bible is all about being restored into a right relationship with God. The fall separated us from Him and Jesus Christ's sacrifice and parousia made it possible to be in the presence of God once again.

[MoGrace2U]

Ted,
Sure some texts are covenantal but others are not, so making all Paul's arguments covenantal does not seem wise either. At some point the dead must literally rise! We certainly don't want to spiritualize death away as if no one 'really' must face it at all either.

[Sower]

Jan 30, 2010 17:43:05 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Ted,
Sure some texts are covenantal but others are not, so making all Paul's arguments covenantal does not seem wise either. At some point the dead must literally rise! We certainly don't want to spiritualize death away as if no one 'really' must face it at all either.

Or, that all text are covenantal, and none are literal!

The Sower~

[Once4all]

And there are references to "flesh" that refers to individual sin and those individuals remaining in the covenant. Being "in Christ" is being in covenant with God, through Christ.

But I am going to take a look at the flesh and spirit verses to see which ones can translate to a broader covenant understanding.

Bev